What do you think of using the name Imogen for a baby girl? Both my husband and I are American and I like that the name has an international flair and isn’t too popular, but I am worried that it is too foreign sounding. I am also worried that since people aren’t very familiar with the name, that she would spend her life telling people how to spell and pronounce her name. We already have a daughter with a Celtic name, and thought it would sound nice together, but our daughter’s name is more familiar to Americans (currently in the top 200 names in the US). Thanks!

I like it and it was on my list. But I too was concerned about unfamiliarity: it’s not even in the U.S. Top 1000. In 2017, the name Imogen was given to 169 new U.S. baby girls. For comparison, the #1000 most popular name (Alora) was given to 257 new U.S. baby girls. Imogen is approximately as popular as the names Geneva, Navy, Noah (for a girl), Belinda, Winifred, Rosalina, and Indigo.

Let’s see what it’s been doing usage-wise.

1980: not in the database, which means 0-4 babies given the name that year
1985: not in the database
1990: not in the database
1995: 8
2000: 18
2005: 38
2010: 101
2015: 141

I find that encouraging.

I do think you and she would spend some time spelling it and pronouncing it, and there will be a few people who haven’t heard of the name before. It kind of depends on how much you think that would bother you: everyone has a different level of tolerance for Name Fuss. It’s getting close to my own tolerance levels, and I would be delighted to encounter it on someone else’s child.

Hi,

My girlfriend and I are expecting our second child this coming August and we’ve run into an issue name wise. We have one son together, Hunter Elliot with my last name, which is an alternate spelling of Richards, and she has a daughter Adriana Erin (goes by Adri) who has her last name which sounds like Antonetti.

We haven’t much discussed baby names yet because she is dead set on naming the baby Alice Valentina, Alice being a name which I happen to hate and think sounds extremely antiquated. It’s a family name of hers which I also find to be a little bit of an issue. Our son is named for a friend of ours (mostly mine) who passed away shortly before he was born, and my girlfriend’s oldest brother who had also passed away fairly recently. Alice and Valentina are two family members of hers who have passed away as well and I don’t have a problem with naming after dead relatives but I don’t want all of our children to be named after dead people, I find it a tad morbid. There is also the fact that when I wanted to name our son a family name of mine she shot it down instantly. I’m from Wales (now living in America) and it was a very distinctly Welsh-sounding name that she rejected because she thought it was too strange sounding, and didn’t like it. I don’t want to be immature and make it seem like I’m saying, ‘Well you did this to me so you can’t get your way either’ but I do feel similar about Alice, it’s very strange sounding with the names of our other kids.

I’m not sure if I should just relent or go with Alice, or try to suggest something else to her. I don’t want to upset or offend her, but I’m not exactly too sure how to bring up the issue. In preparation for that conversation, though, I was hoping you could help me find some names similar in sound or meaning to Alice that I could suggest to somewhat honor her relatives. My girlfriend is of Italian background so her family pronounce Alice as Ali-che and she was considering using Ali as a nickname. It would be nice to find a name that could possibly still have the Ali aspect, but would also sound good with Hunter and Adriana as well as our names, Trent and Jo. (I am also of Chinese background and she of Brazilian, so Eastern Asian and Latino/Portuguese names are not out of the question).

Thanks so much,
Trent

If you hate the name Alice, and if you have tried very hard to come around to the name because it is important to your girlfriend but you still hate the name, then you are right that it is time to have the “I’m sorry, but I can’t come around to this name and we need to take it out of consideration and look together for something else” conversation.

If she has been aware all along that you are not on-board with the name, this will be one level of conversation; if you have been letting her think that you agree to the name, things will be more fraught. Either way, I suggest bringing it up by asking pleasantly to discuss baby names, in whatever way makes sense for you as a couple. For example, Paul did not want to talk about names while the other kids were still up, and he liked to have some warning so he could get in the right mindset (I liked talking about baby names a LOT more than he did), so I would say, “Hey, can we talk about baby names for awhile after the kids go to bed tonight?” Or sometimes I would suggest that we go out to dinner and discuss it there; it makes for a calmer conversation, plus it’s fun to have a meal out if it’s doable.

There are two topics to discuss. Well, three. The first topic is the main one: that you have considered the name Alice, but it’s not working for you. The second topic is what other names would the two of you like to consider? And the third topic is the one that needs to be the backbone behind your discussion even if it is not voiced: that the job of choosing a name for a baby is up to both parents, not just one, and that the strength of her desire to use the name doesn’t mean she gets to use it despite your objections.

I see your issue with not wanting to make it seem like retaliation for her rejection of a name you liked. My hope is that because the process of choosing names often involves lots of name-rejections by both parents, that won’t seem to her to be a natural leap—and that if she DOES make that leap, that your assurance to the contrary will be sufficient. I recommend emphasizing that you know she loves the name and it’s important to her, and that you tried to come around to it because she loves it so much.

In fact, if she rejected a name you liked without seeming to give it that same consideration, it might be helpful to keep this concept in the forefront of everyone’s minds. Paul had a problem with insta-rejecting names, so what I did with him is say something like: “I have a name for you to consider. I really like the name, so I want you to give it a chance and not reject it right away. I’m just going to SAY the name and then we won’t discuss it for awhile.” Or sometimes I would give him a list of a dozen or so names I liked, and tell him to think about those for awhile and then we’d discuss it next week. This greatly reduced the number of times he said no to a name too quickly (and in one memorable case, caused him to choose as his Top Favorite a name he had previously vehemently rejected).

I am not sure you need to go into the discussion about the name Alice armed with Ali alternatives; I think it might be enough to go into it armed with the IDEA of looking together for Ali alternatives, so that you can find out what your shared priorities are before you do a lot of searching. In addition, I suggest bringing the idea of looking together for more names of her relatives. That may be a good area for compromise: honor names from her side, but names you DO like. Especially if the other children have honor names, and if this child will have your surname; if this child will have the mother’s surname, then I would be inclined to look for honor names from your side of the family. If possible, I recommend seeing if you can think of the names as “family honor names” rather than “names of dead people.” Or perhaps you can look for names that honor family members who are still living.

Remember that after you have this discussion, it is not your job or her job to come up with a name she likes as much as Alice; the only job is to come up with a name the two of you can agree on from the non-Alice names that remain.

Leave Valentina on the table for now if you don’t hate it. For one thing, I think it’s really nice with Adriana: how would you feel about switching the names? Sometimes a name that feels all wrong in the first-name position can seem very nice as a middle name. (I suggest the same for the Welsh name you liked, if there is another chance to use it.) Valentina Alice. Adriana, Hunter, and Valentina. She could still be called Ali (though Adri and Ali seem very similar to me), or Leni.

I like sibling-name compatibility too, but I recommend drawing the line at trying to find names that sound good with the parents’ names. Parents’ names are usually a generation out of date, and everyone knows you didn’t choose them. Even people who love sibling names to coordinate don’t expect the entire family’s names to go together, and it adds an unnecessary level of difficulty.

Update on Baby Naming Issue: Surnames and Family Naming Traditions

Hello!
What do you do when you and your husband can’t agree on a baby boy name? I’m currently due with our second child in a month, and don’t know the sex of the baby. We can agree on girl names fairly easily, but for a boy name, he wants the boy named after him.

Mind you there is no tradition in his family of this, so it’s not like it’s a family tradition. He just really wants his son to be named after him. I have issues around that, one that it’s sexist to baby girls, completely egotistical and a bit chauvinist. As if boys are better than girls so they have to “carry on” this family name. But the worst of it all is that I really don’t like my husband’s name for my own child. It’s not a name I would choose at all!

What do we do?!?!

Here is what you do when one parent strongly wants to use a name and the other parent strongly doesn’t: you don’t use the name. The name is taken out of consideration.

First, I hope, the parent who doesn’t want the name tries very hard to want it because the other parent feels so strongly about it: serious time and effort should be spent on this. But if that doesn’t work (as it has not in this case), the parent who wants the name has to come to the realization that the strength of their desire doesn’t mean they get what they want. It is hard. It really is. I have a lot of sympathy for a parent whose favorite, favorite name is not going to happen.

If it helps, he can know that he is in good company, not only with other parents whose baby-naming partners didn’t like The Name, but with parents whose favorite name is impossible with the surname, or impossible with a sibling name, or where there is a severe family reason not to use the name (it’s the name of dad’s new wife and no one can stand her; it’s the name of ex-wife’s child with new husband; the name we’ve loved since childhood is coincidentally the name of our detested sister-in-law; etc.), or where someone else used the name first and now the parents feel they can’t use it without causing extreme interpersonal issues, or where someone horrible with that name has just come into the news, or where royalty/celebrity just used it. There are so many reasons why a beloved name has to be taken off the table, and so many of us have to cope with that reality and then find our favorite names from all the names that remain. Some of us always pine a little for those lost names, but there it is.

In this case, there are so many reasons you don’t want to use this name, it’s clear the name should be out (and possibly long-since out; how long have you two been arguing about this?). The fact that you’re still asking me what should be done, and presenting this as an issue of the two of you not agreeing on a name when it’s actually an issue of him wanting a name you don’t want and apparently continuing to insist on it, makes me feel a little worried. I wonder if you’re feeling pressure because what he wants is his own name? Like, if he wanted any other name, and REALLY REALLY WANTED it, and you REALLY REALLY DIDN’T, would you be struggling in this same way to say “I’m sorry, but no”? Do a few test runs of this in your head: pick a name you strongly don’t want to us for a number of reasons (name of ex-boyfriend, name of real jerk you know, name you just hate the sound of, name someone else in your family/friend group recently used, name of someone terrible in the news) and imagine your husband really pushing for that name. Is the trouble that you don’t want to say no to a name he really wants, or is the trouble that you don’t want to say no to a namesake? Society/custom can exert a surprisingly amount of pressure.

Or is the issue not with you saying no but with him accepting that no? Is wanting to pass down his own name something he feels he ought to be able to have as a man in this society, and so instead of backing off as he would if you rejected another of his favorites, he is persisting on principle? My high school boyfriend felt it was his Right to have a son named after him. Like, that that wish was enough to override any future partner’s wishes. We had a number of fights about it, and in the midst of the later excruciating pain of the break-up, one bright light was realizing I would not have to deal with that issue with him. (The way he and his eventual wife solved it was by making the child a namesake, but never ever ever using that name except on paperwork, and calling the child by the wife’s first-choice name.)

At this point, you have two tasks and your husband has two tasks. Your first task is to make it clear to your husband that his favorite name is not going to be the child’s name. I don’t know how clear you have already been, so I don’t know if what’s needed here is a gentle, sorrowful, “I’m sorry, honey; I’ve really tried to like that idea because I know how important it is to you, but I’m afraid I’m just not willing” or if there has to be some shouting and table-flipping to get your point fully across, but the communication needs to happen in a way that lets him know you feel sad for him but the decision is final. Your husband’s first task is to accept this, and to let go of the idea of using his own name.

The second task for both of you is to find the name you both like best out of the names that remain. To be clear, the task is NOT for either of you to find him a name he likes as much as the idea of using his own name. The task is for the two of you to look at all the names that are not his name, and find the highest-ranked one that the two of you agree on.

Hi!
I’ve been following your blog for a while – I find naming trends very interesting to watch, though I have no plans to have and name kids any time soon. Recently me and my boyfriend were discussing naming, and it raised… some questions. Essentially, the conversation started as ‘using nouns and adjectives as names can turn out sounding silly’, which I think is often true – I showed him the letter about Felony Fever Vice and Lethal Cashmere.
I thought we agreed on this. But turns out my boyfriend also heavily disapproves of such outlandish names as Lily, Grace, Hope, Ruby, because they are “not names”. I will admit I died inside slightly when he told me he’d never name a child Rose because it’s a stripper name.
So I guess this is two things. One, I think it really would be an interesting discussion to see when people think a noun can become a name (even the names we consider to have no English meaning name now, had meanings in their original setting..)
And two, would be great to have a naming expert confirm whether or not names like Mercy are actually names!

Thanks!

You and I and everyone else including your boyfriend all know the answer to this question, which is that Lily, Grace, Hope, Ruby, Rose, and Mercy are all in fact names. This is obvious and provable and not up for discussion unless we all get very, very high first.

The actual question here is why your boyfriend is taking this silly stance. It would indeed be interesting to have a discussion about why some words are also names and some are not, and who decides, and what the difference is. But first there needs to be general acceptance of reality by all discussion partners. A discussion based on false premises was a little bit fun in college, but that was the era of thinking that toying with reality made us sound smart.

Here is something I find myself less and less willing to deal with as I get older: people who are being argumentative/difficult for the sake of being argumentative/difficult. That’s what your boyfriend is doing to you right now. He’s basically saying, “I’m going to make an absurd claim we both know to be untrue. Now YOU put in the work to prove to me what we BOTH ALREADY KNOW TO BE TRUE, while I sit back and enjoy it!” Is this work you want to willingly take on? Is this work ANY of us want to willingly take on? Do any of us find it a valuable use of our time to persuade him of something he already knows to be true? Wouldn’t it be more fun to do pretty much anything else?

Like, if he prefers not to use names that are also words, that is an absolutely legitimate preference. He can say, “Hm, no, I find I generally don’t like names that are also words.” This might be sad for someone he’s naming children with, but it’s not WRONG. But to instead say those names are NOT IN FACT NAMES? Or that Rose, an ancient and lovely name used for many women in a vast assortment of professions, is “a stripper name”? He is playing some sort of game, and it’s not a game I would want to play if I were you.

If he is a good, smart, quality guy who is just wrongly thinking he’s being super sassy and funny right now with this, you should be able to stop it by flipping it: say to him, “What if I were to say that [several names you know he likes] are ‘not names’ just because I don’t like them? You would say that was ridiculous, and you’d be right. Can we stick to saying we like certain names or don’t like certain names?”

I also think it’s possible that this is just not a hypothetical conversation he’s able/willing to have right now. If kids are not anywhere on the horizon, he may be treating the whole thing much more lightly than he would if the two of you had a baby on the way. If he’s not using reality-denying statements in other discussions you have with him, then this might be nothing more than him playing around with something that doesn’t seem serious/relevant to him yet.

Update (and photo) on Middle Name Challenge: Baby Boy Elliot ______ Sh@w

Update (and photo) on Baby Girl Cave, Sister to Lincoln and Sullivan

Hi there,

We just found out we are having a baby girl! We are over the moon!!! We already have two boys — Everett Christian (goes by Everett) and Pierson Bost (goes by Bo). All of our names are derived from family names, so we would like to continue the trend.

My mother is battling cancer and she is my rock, my best friend. Her name is Colleen, which I have never really loved as a potential baby name. Her mother, my grandmother, is Charlotte, who is also an inspiration and I happen to love her name. Lastly, my sister’s middle name is Kathleen and my SIL is Katherine. From all of this, we were thinking about the name Charlotte Katherine, nn Charlie Kate. Only problem is it leaves out my mom! So then we thought about Charlotte Kathleen, same nn. The “een” in Colleen makes it into the name and so does my sister’s middle name. Of course, my husband likes the sound of Katherine better.

Finally, since we already have an Everett is Charlotte to similar sounding for a sibling name? I’m sure we would rarely call her by her full name, so does this matter?

Thanks in advance!!!
Meg Biggers

It sounds to me as if the main issue is that you are trying to cram too many honor names into one baby’s name. I suggest prioritizing: which family member(s) do you MOST want to honor? It sounds as if you most want to honor your mother, but you don’t want to use her name. The question, then, is this: What’s more important to you: honoring your mother or using a name you prefer?

The fact that I’m asking the question will imply that I think you should consider it more important to honor your mother, and that is not the case. But it’s rare for family honor names to coincidentally be the same as our favorite names, so usually a trade is involved: you give up a name you love more, in exchange for the satisfaction of honoring a family member, pleasing them with that honor, and remembering them every time you use the name.

When I was pregnant with my first son, I struggled with this decision: I most wanted to honor my grandfather, but I actively disliked his name—and, awkwardly, it was the name of a former serious boyfriend of mine. We ended up using it as the middle name, and I’m so glad: I feel warm satisfaction with that choice, and happiness at the memory of how thrilled my grandfather was about it. To my surprise, I have also come to like the name; I still wouldn’t want to use it as a first name, but I actively like it.

If it’s more important to you to honor your mother, I think you should use her name, probably as a middle name. If the child is named Charlotte Kathleen, and you have a grandmother Charlotte and a sister whose middle name is Kathleen, I don’t think your mother is going to think the -een of Kathleen is a tribute to herself. I suggest Charlotte Colleen, honoring your grandmother and mother while also giving you a first name you love.

I realize this loses you the nickname Charlie Kate. I suggest it anyway.

I don’t think Charlotte is too close to Everett. I see the matching endings, but even if you do end up calling her by her given name, I think it would be fine—and worth it, for the honor name. It helps too that another child is in between: Everett, Bo, and Charlotte is less noticeable than Everett, Charlotte, and Bo.

Update (and photo) on Baby Boy Nordson, Brother to Warren and Lee