I said I would talk more about a friend BRINGING HER HUSBAND TO OUR COFFEE DATE.
Linnea and I are former coworkers, and we have been getting together every couple of weeks for coffee or for a walk. We had plans to go for coffee. When we were confirming those plans the night before, she texted, as part of the confirmation, “Kent might come I’m not sure.” Kent is her husband.
I was baffled. Why might Kent be coming to our coffee date? Why wasn’t she sure? Why was there no REASON given? I would never, ever, just bring Paul along to a meeting with a friend.
I left the text unanswered for awhile, to process and consider. I couldn’t even totally tell from context if she might be…kidding? And if not, I wanted to take some time to decide if this was something I was going to set a boundary on. Like, if I don’t object ahead of time, and she does bring him, then I feel like it would be a LOT harder to object next time: it would seem personal, like I didn’t like him. Whereas if I object up front, it’s more like objecting to the breach of our plans in general.
Which I DO object to, by the way. I recently had ANOTHER friend do something like this: my former coworker Wendy and I had plans to meet for lunch, and then I was meeting another former coworker, Melissa, afterward to try a local brewery; I was excited about these fun plans. Wendy and Melissa found out I had plans with both of them on the same day, so Wendy invited Melissa to join us for lunch, without asking me or telling me. Melissa then texted me, informing me that she’d be joining us “if that’s okay,” and canceling our plans for afterward, since we’d be having lunch. Well, at that point I didn’t feel there was any room to say no, it’s not okay—but it was NOT okay! I wanted to dish dirt with Wendy, dirt we could not dish in front of Melissa! (Melissa is long-time good friends with the terrible supervisor.) And then I wanted to meet SEPARATELY with Melissa, because she and Wendy work closely together and share all their news every day, and I wanted to catch up with Melissa without Wendy having to sit there hearing it all repeated! ALSO I wanted to go to this brewery, and so did Melissa, and we have LONG been trying to figure out a time we could both go! (Wendy does not drink.)
But also: I object in general to someone making/changing plans for me without consulting me. My plan was to have two separate fun things with two separate people, and now I was having one thing instead of two things, and the content of that one thing was severely compromised. Interestingly, considering future events, I vented about this at the time to Linnea, who said, “Well, maybe Wendy figured this way you could kill two birds with one stone, and not have to rush from one thing to the next.” Okay, cool? But then consult with me before doing it, so that I can say “Actually, no, I WANT two separate birds, that’s why I set it up that way; and also there is no rush, because I scheduled half an hour between the two things.” I’m an adult who makes plans deliberately! I do not need another adult to decide my plans aren’t good and rearrange them for me!
When I texted Wendy, by the way, saying “Melissa says she’s joining us?,” Wendy said “Yeah, I never get to see her outside of work!” Okay, cool? Then maybe you can make your OWN plans with her outside of work? And also: you sit next to each other four days a week at work and talk the whole time, so.
Back to Linnea and her inexplicable husband. I decided not to set a boundary. I felt like I didn’t have enough information about why he might be joining us, or what that would look like, and also I am a wimp. Instead I hit the thumbs-up ten hours later (there was a nighttime in there), which for me in this context is a FAIRLY CHILLY RESPONSE. And then I waited to see how this was going to go down.
How it went down is that when Linnea picked me up the next morning (we have a shortage of cars at our house, with six people home), her husband was driving. Still no explanation about why he was there. We drove to the coffee shop, and there we met ANOTHER PERSON LINNEA HAD INVITED: a teenager who lives with them right now, because of issues at home. Linnea introduced me to the kid, saying “She’s just here for a few minutes to have coffee and then she has to get going.” Okay, okay, this is weird but okay. So the FOUR of us took our coffees to the seating areas, and at this point Linnea said that Kent was here to get some work done. I thought this meant he would sit separately from us, at a table with his laptop, and I felt very relieved I hadn’t protested this plan earlier. Of course he can tag along to the coffee shop and sit at a table across the room to get work done!
BUT NO. He sat with us. And though he was allegedly working on his laptop, he kept contributing to our conversation! And finally he put his laptop away and became a full participant, even speaking at length about his job and his hobbies and his friends!
And the kid stayed almost the whole time! We were there for over two hours, and the kid left about ten minutes before we did! She was pleasant and made eye contact and pretended to be interested in what we were talking about, but SHE WAS THERE THE WHOLE TIME, AND I DO NOT KNOW HER, AND WHY DID LINNEA BRING HER TO THIS BORING ADULT COFFEE TIME?
Well. After all that ranting, I should confess that Linnea’s husband is chatty and friendly, and it was not terrible having to talk with him. He is very, very social, and I think he’s one of those “never met a stranger” types who likes to know as many people as possible. That kind of person tends to be easy to talk to, because they are ZERO stressed about the situation, and they can fill ANY awkward silence, and in fact there will BE no awkward silence. I suspect Linnea brought him along BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE BROUGHT ALONG, and perhaps she has trouble saying no to his puppyish enthusiasm. I suspect she talks to him about her friends, and then he wants to know her friends. He is not really my cup of tea, but he is in that neutral zone of I don’t mind him either, and getting to know him gives me more insight into Linnea’s life and marriage, which I find pleasant and interesting. And, too, now I can picture the kid when Linnea mentions her, which is pleasant and interesting. So all of that is good.
BUT IT IS NOT WHAT WAS PLANNED. And I still don’t like THAT.
UGH sorry.
YES I often do not in fact want to kill two birds with one stone, thanks, I do in fact enjoy time with friends and don’t want it to suddenly be cut to *half* the planned time *and* also changed substantially. (I am a “one on one is ideal!” person, but I do feel like people should in theory generally know that if you change something from one on one to multiple people then the dynamic and what you can talk about changes a lot??? And sometimes I am good with that change, but other times, Y’ALL.)
That is quite weird re: coffee date, but having a Teenager Added To Your Life would do weird things, including that she may really want the kid to get to know Auntie Swistle but it may have been awkward/weird to her to directly introduce the kid to Auntie Swistle [i.e. kid goes “no, that’s your Friend Time, I’m not intruding on that!”] without also adding Husband? But Husband being one of those “the more the merrier, what do you mean I’m not invited?” people would also explain it, at which point it might be more “bring teenager along so Swistle does not get the idea this is a proposition for a threesome” or “teenager is being transported half-way to where they’re going by this vehicle” than teenager-centric.
But yes. Ugh. And *explain* if you do need to, even if it is just “there is some interpersonal stuff going on which means it would be WAY easier for me if you are okay with X and Y coming along” but just… adding people. Sigh.
(but also I do know extroverts who are *baffled* at the idea of things *not* being “the more the merrier” and there are people who are baffled by the idea of not wanting Maximum Efficiency and altogether humans do vary so much buuuut auuugh.)
Ugh. I too dislike the “change.” I have a very good friend who is a bit disorganized with planning and has a hard time telling people “no.” So sometimes we will have plans with just her and I, and then a day or so before the outing, she’ll text to say she forgot she also made plans with “so and so” and would I mind if it’s the three of us? Yes, I mind, I had plans to spend one on one time with you, but she’s so sweet and nice that I say, “Of course, I don’t mind.” I remind myself that, more often than not, it is just the two of us and I can suck it up as a friend and have this person join. My friend is not really a “more the merrier” sort of person, she’s an introvert who prefers smaller gatherings. I think her distaste for telling people “no” overrides that and after all, it’s now 3 instead of two, so it’s not a big change.
But I hear you, my initial reaction every time is to be a bit irritated with the change.
And also, why is the husband coming? There may be a good reason, but that should be something your friend conveyed to you. I wouldn’t add anyone to a gathering without a bit of an explanation. Glad it worked out this time, hopefully it doesn’t become a pattern.
I have a few friends (and a spouse!) who does this thing, inviting along people to join in on our plans. I am annoyed, every time. When I make plans with a specific person or for a specific purpose, the plan is that and only that for me. My wife justifies this annoying trait by saying, “The more the merrier!” but I am decidedly not more merrier when there are more people involved. It typically means masking and editing myself to appeal to the expanded audience. My wife also loves to kill two birds with one stone. What she doesn’t realize, is that not everyone is everyone else’s cup of tea. Turning a weekend camping with one other same-age couple sounds fun until you also invite a younger couple with kids – that changes the entire dynamic! Don’t do that! But I, too, am a wimp and I usually just put up with it and complain about it on the back end.
Waiting 10 hours and then sending a thumbs up is so real! I have had 2 recent encounters like this: an acquaintance asked me if I had any “silver water” and I did not know what that was. Once I found out what that was, I was stumped for a while thinking “what gave her the impression I would have that”. Finally I just said “I don’t think you meant this for me” and she never responded.
Entirely differently, I recently “dropped the rope” with a longtime friend. We used to see each other every week, but she moved away and eventually we became mostly text friends, but then she entirely stopped responding to me. Like I would send her something 1 or 2 times a week, like “my kid said something funny” or “saw this and thought of you” and she wouldn’t even “haha” or heart emoji or anything. So I just stopped. MONTHS later, she texted and said “hey there is a show I’d like to see in your town, could husband and I come stay at your house for a week in August?” I thought about it overnight and just replied “sure”. Not a word since and that was in May. I do not know if they’re coming to my house next month or not. But honestly.
People contain multitudes. Which are often absolutely baffling.
This is all stressing me OUT. I too would find it all interesting from an anthropological viewpoint (or maybe I mean sociological, no idea), but adding people CHANGES THE DYNAMIC. Especially adding spouses or children! ESPECIALLY especially adding SPOUSES OR CHILDREN YOU DO NOT ALREADY KNOW!!
My biggest objection to the whole “hey, let’s add so-and-so to our meet up” thing is that I have a hard enough time feeling comfortable with one person, and when you add another person, I am suddenly the silent one, listening in on the other two people’s conversation. And that’s FINE, and WHATEVER, and sometimes I even enjoy getting to be “social” without participating, but it’s a whole new dynamic. I have a friend who is much more social than I am, and she has added one of our mutual friends to our get-togethers several times, but a) she always asks beforehand and b) she acknowledges and understands the importance of two people having time alone. In fact, knowing that she will be at the same cafe that I am planning to meet another friend, I have sometimes invited her to join in, because I know that she will not stay the whole time.
It seems to me that this combining of get togethers happens most often out of awkwardness. Like, I will have plans with a friend and then someone we both know will reach out to her and ask to meet that same day/time, and the situation and overlapping friendships is such that it would feel exclusionary to “leave out” the other person. I get that awkwardness, I do. And I do *want* to be a “the more the merrier” kind of person, but sometimes you just want to catch up with your one friend without anyone else around.
Oh my, I remember the first time I made plans with a friend to have dinner together at her house after she and her boyfriend moved in together: I had not realized he would be home… and present THE ENTIRE TIME. I actually kept waiting for him to excuse himself and leave, but he never did. I know it is normal for someone to have dinner at their own house, but this was a very close friend and I wanted to talk about personal stuff with her (like we used to do at least weekly for years while at university and the first years after), and I didn’t feel comfortable doing that with him present. Nice enough guy, so that wasn’t the problem, but we ended up having an evening of small talk and political discussions, nothing personal or intimate. My friend didn’t seem to think there was anything different than usual. I felt like she could at least have said “would you like to have dinner with US” rather than “WE (which used to mean me and her) should have dinner soon!”
Also hate it when people invite someone else (a mutual friend) to an activity I was going to do with them alone. Makes me feel like my company somehow isn’t enough for them, which in turn makes me want to cancel the whole thing (but that would look childish so I don’t).
Okay, I read this earlier, and then I needed to process, so I’m coming back to comment.
First, I am a person who “never met a stranger” and OH MY GOD I would NEVER want to be brought along to a coffee date with my spouse and a friend of his UNLESS the friend specifically said “Bring Nicole.” EVEN THEN that seems weird unless his friend also brought his spouse. And I would find it incredibly off-putting if a friend brought her husband along to a coffee date. I would find it incredibly off-putting if she even SUGGESTED this would happen. WHAT ARE WE DOING. The most that ever happens is when I have a friend over to our house to visit, and my husband – who is retired – pops into the living room to say hi and then HE LEAVES THE ROOM SO WE CAN TALK. This whole thing is crazytown bananapants and you should not stand for it. If it’s “Oh, whatshisface is doing some work at that same coffee shop, ha ha, he’ll be at another table” I would STILL think it’s weird. GET YOUR OWN DAMN COFFEE SHOP. And then with some random teenager? NO MADAM THIS IS NOT WHAT WE DO.
This reminds me so much of a few relationships I know in which one partner clearly does not trust the other one, and so accompanies that person everywhere, lest that person have a wandering eye. Maybe that person DOES have a wandering eye but dollface, you are going to just have to leave that wandering eye because it will happen anywhere. A few years ago was my husband’s 40th high school reunion, and there was the “option” to take spouses, but I noped out of that because why would I go to my husband’s HS reunion? WHY? And a woman said to me, scandalized, that I could NOT let him go alone. Listen, lady, I am QUITE enough for this man, and besides which I trust him implicitly, and why are you even with someone if you can’t trust them out of your sight for a moment?
Which does not seem to be the case here but I had to get that off my chest.
Anyway. The thing with the friends is weird too. I find that equally off-putting but in a different way. It’s one thing if Linnea said “Hey Swistle, Melissa wants to join us for lunch, is that okay?” Then you could decide. But just changing plans is plain rude.
I HAVE FEEEEEEEEEELINGS ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING
ME TOO NICOLE. I have ONGOING FEELINGS ABOUT BOTH EVENTS
Nicole, is this the Canadian in us? Because I read Swistle’s whole post just so confused and aghast that anyone would do either of these things! You DO NOT randomly invite people to plans without the other party giving consent (and it needs to be VERY CLEAR they can say no). Like I couldn’t even really envision these scenarios they felt so foreign to me. The height of bad manners. I would be terribly offended.
Swistle: I’m sorry these happened to you and may they never happen again.
Both of those situations would irk my nerves as the kids say. No, no, no.
Oh man, this kind of thing really gets on my nerves. And it’s so hard to speak up about it without sounding mean! “I want just the two of us to hang out together” is such a different sentiment than “I don’t want to see Mutual Friend,” and in these kinds of situations I almost always mean the first one — but it’s so easy to sound like I mean the second one.
One time a few years ago, a friend asked me if they could invite a mutual friend on a week-long vacation. And I actively DID NOT WANT that person to join us — like, as in, it would have ruined the trip for me. And I had to find a tactful way to tell them this! Luckily they were cool about it and promised me they wouldn’t say anything to the mutual friend, but still. MORTIFYING.
Ugh! One time I had arranged to meet an old childhood friend who I hadn’t seen for years. I was really looking forward to catching up with her and hearing about her life, but then my sister invited herself along as well and spent the whole time talking about herself.
But yeah with friends if we’re going to bring spouses it’s always negotiated in advance, like ok this one time let’s have lunch all four of us
I just had to deal with this type of situation with my aunt (by marriage). We are planning a long weekend together- her, myself, and my 19 year old daughter. She has access to a lakeside house for a great price- it is a 3 bedroom. I sleep in a recliner, but would still use a room to change/store belongings, get ready, etc. Aunt is paying for the house in full ($100 a nite), but I was more than willing to chip in on it. Otherwise, I was going to pay for all meals, groceries, activities, etc. And she just casually mentions that she might invite her sister to come along since ‘the 3rd bedroom would be open’. I beg your pardon? First off, my fully grown daughter does not want to share a bedroom with me, much less a bed/changing space. And Aunt’s sister is one of those dour, unhappy, ‘something-is-always-wrong-and-its-never-her-fault’ kind of people that I don’t enjoy being around.
I had to tactfully say I thought the vacation was just for Aunt, myself and my daughter, with the unspoken sub-text being ‘if she’s going, then I’m not’. I get why Aunt wanted her there but my daughter and myself decidedly did not.
My aunt has another, much nicer sister. And while I am okay around her, I still wouldn’t want to vacation with her – I see you once a year at joint family events, no, I am not spending my only vacation this year with near strangers. The Audacity!
When you first mentioned the husband coming along, I thought it wasn’t THAT strange and maybe your reaction was a straight person thing I didn’t quite get, but now with the context (these were pre-existing plans that got changed, you aren’t really friends with the husband, it wasn’t just the husband but a kid, too) I am on board, that was strange and vexing. And I would be sad to have the other two outings collapsed into one.