The mother of Elizabeth’s friend Sarah asked Sarah to give Elizabeth a pamphlet for a religious summer camp. “My mom says to say it’s not REALLY about religion,” said Sarah. The pamphlet explains that the purpose of the camp is to have fun! and make friends! and eat s’mores! and deeply explore the Bible to learn how it relates to every aspect of our world and our lives! I looked up the organization and they are a group formed for the purpose of using children to evangelize to other children.
I am trying to react to this with semi-amused eye-rolling (“Just toss the pamphlet in the recycling and forget about it! She’s probably just thinking Elizabeth might like to go to the same camp as Sarah!”), but let me tell you confidentially that I am not succeeding. You may remember that I was brought up Christian, so I remember this kind of thing from the inside point of view, and I have been recognizing the symptoms in Sarah and her family for awhile now; this is not just a casual camp idea. I remember learning in Sunday School and youth group about looking for opportunities to witness to our friends. I remember telling friends that the picnic or youth group activity or vacation Bible school or summer camp wasn’t really about religion, it was just for having fun! and making friends! and eating s’mores! You don’t have to be religious, it’s for everyone!
I also know that back then, I would have felt very sorry for Elizabeth, whose parents Weren’t Saved and so weren’t teaching her The Good News. I would have been worried about this, and I would have had a strong mental image of their dark souls hungering for the light. I would have earnestly brought the situation up as a prayer request in Sunday School or youth group. It makes me feel queasy to think about this, and to think of this other family seeing our family this way. I don’t have to wonder if Sarah has reported Elizabeth’s unsaved status to her family, or if they might be thinking they can save Elizabeth, or if Sarah has been taught she should be on the lookout for moments she can Share Her Faith. “It’s not about RELIGION,” Sarah explains at the school lunch table. “It’s about the way the world WORKS.” I know this script. I have advised Elizabeth that there is no point in arguing, and that it is better to change the subject. Sarah is a good friend when she’s not trying to do her Evangelical Duty.
When I was on the inside of this kind of thing, it seemed compassionate: we’re trying to RESCUE people! we are battling for people’s ETERNAL SOULS! From the outside, it looks presumptuous and predatory. Adults should not be trying to convert other people’s children to their religion. Adults should not be using their own children as tools to convert other people’s children. Adults should know this through the easy one-step method of wondering if they would want other adults to work on converting THEIR children. I don’t think Sarah’s mother would think it was compassionate of me to try to save Sarah from her parents’ teachings. I think she would be outraged at any attempt, and would want me to stay away from her child, and would think it was really weird of me to try to get involved, and would see it as me trying to lead Sarah astray.
I am not, however, going to do anything about this, except explaining to my own children what this is and why I don’t like it and why this is a hot-button area of discussion for me. I’m not going to confront Sarah’s mother, someone I’ve met only once. I’m not going to send back a pamphlet about Skeptics Camp, telling Elizabeth to explain to Sarah that it’s not REALLY about skepticism. I’m not going to do anything except roll my eyes and recycle the stupid pamphlet and lie awake composing mental arguments about it.
Religious stuff always makes me feel weird. I grew up (and still live) in the South, and ALWAYS felt so left out as a kid/teen/young adult that we didn’t go to church. It made me feel less than for SO many years. Once I had my own kids, I joined a church, got involved, and became a Church Person. I loved the community aspect of it, but the religion part never really stuck. Once the girls were old enough to start asking the real questions and forming their own opinions, we came to the conclusion as a family that we are Not Believers, and that’s okay.
My youngest has a really tight-knit group of friends from elementary, and the friends all go to camp together every summer. The moms all mentioned it to me and Stella was pumped about it… Until we looked it up online. SUUUUPER churchy camp. (Which, Great! If you are church/Christianity kinds of people! But we are not.)
I kindly let the other moms know that Stella wasn’t going to be able to make it, and one of them called me and offered to PAY FOR IT. It was the pinnacle of awkward to explain, thank you, but it’s not the money, it’s the religious theme of the camp that we’re not down with.
Sarah’s mother does not model appropriate behavior. I would go to great lengths not to engage her.
Well handled (by not doing anything!), but, good grief, what potential is here for going utterly, legitimately ballistic! I am constantly surprised by the amount of leeway given to people for their religion-backed/based actions – I’m absolutely certain that the consideration would not be returned if the shoe was on the other foot!
SKEPTIC CAMP. OMG, I want to create that pamphlet for REAL and have you give it to that family.
So. I grew up non-Mormon in Utah. I was the recipient of this type of thing more times and in more ways than I can say. It’s upsetting. When you’re up at night composing what you WOULD say if you were free to, imagine me standing behind you emphatically gesticulating and saying “yeah!” and “that’s right!” and “BOOYAH!” to everything you say.
This is so foreign to me since I’m Jewish and don’t understand what terms like “being saved” mean. It reminds me of the first (and only so far) Christian funeral I attended where everyone was supposed to say “praise be with you” to the people sitting next to them, and I had no idea what the appropriate response was. At least you have some experience with this so you can explain it to your kids.
I can imagine how weird that was! My family experimented with lots of religions when I was a kid and I always felt so uncomfortable. This sounds like a Catholic full mass service. They were saying “peace be with you” and the response is “also with you”. Not a bad sentiment, but the way everyone goes along with the whole thing is a bit creepy
Happy, I believe they changed the response. It’s now “and also with your spirit.” Which is weird to me. I always forget having grown up Catholic, before the change, and now only occasionally finding myself in a Church. I much preferred the original, as wishing peace is quite a nice thing, but idk about this spirit stuff. Now it’s kinda odd.
Actually the “and with your spirit” bit is what the congregation says back to the priest when he says “Peace be with you.” The people just say “Peace be with you” back and forth to each other, or just “Peace.” At least that’s how it is in my Catholic church. It’s very odd to me as well, but now that it’s been 5+ years, it feels normal-ish. Many of the other prayers/responses changed too. It’s all very eye-rolly to me and my family and most of the Catholics who I’ve talked to.
I’m a semi-lapsed Catholic. My kids go to Catholic school (even for high school) but it’s mostly because our public school district is abysmal but we like where we live. The non-Catholic private schools cost 2-3x the tuition. There are MANY non-Catholic students attending the Catholic schools. The idea of trying to persuade anyone to become Catholic has never crossed my mind or has ever been preached to me. Our current pastor gives me the impression he is trying to preach us into becoming Catholic… I find myself thinking… “preaching to the choir, dude, we’re already Catholic!”
My kids have attended VBS and now they volunteer at it (Catholic high schools and middle-school grades require volunteer hours around here). It is literally 2 hours of singing/crafts/snacks which are of course Bible-related. I don’t feel it is pushy evangelism at all. No pamphlets, nothing like that. I’m sure many moms use it as a two-hour window to grocery shop or have some kid-free time three weeks into summer.
My experience has been that Catholics keep to themselves compared to other Christian religions. That’s just my experience in one region of the US. I honestly don’t care who believes what. In a life or death situation, I suspect I would pray. I’m glad I’m legally allowed to do that.
I would have no trouble tossing a pamphlet into the recycle bin and forgetting about it. And I would definitely enjoy a Skeptics Camp!
Tracy, your description of mass and school and vacation bible school mirrors my family’s own experience. We are Catholic and attend mass on Sunday and my boys attend Catholic school and are going to VBS next week. But I’ve never felt any pressure to evangelize. Rather the opposite, in fact, the subtle message I am hearing is to accept other religions as they are, we are all generally on the same path.
I do get lots of pressure to be generous and help the poor and sick and afflicted. This lines up nicely my view of the world. :)
Oh man. I am highly unprepared for my childrens’ many upcoming years of inter-child interactions. Swistle, have you considered a consultant style business model where you fly in to have Good Talks with families whose parents are less good at it than you??
Oh, this, there’s absolutely a market for it.
I went to that summer camp (I’m actually curious if it is TRULY the same one) and we spent so much time praying for unsaved friends and crying over how to bring them to God. As much fun as the swimming! Campfires! Outdoors! was, the thing I remember most is not really understanding why everyone else seemed to be feeling something I couldn’t.
My parents have casually offered to send my kids to the same summer camp, instead I’m sending mine to secular sleepaway camp, where I am sure they sacrifice goats and work toward a socialist agenda instead.
“…where I am sure they sacrifice goats and work toward a socialist agenda instead.”
OMG – just spit out my drink! Thanks for the laugh!
😂😂😂
I am SO INTERESTED in a socialist agenda camp!
In the interest of making it through the rough tween girl friendship years, I have allowed my daughter to go to after school Bible club and youth group Wednesdays with a couple of friends. It’s fun, friendly, there’s always junk food (wtf, proselytizing through brownies?) and she has a great time.
I have explained every time, though, that the world is big and varied and she is allowed to take in lots of experiences without signing any spiritual contracts. She needs to be polite and appropriate, but organized religion is Not Something I Believe In, and I will 100% nope her out of there if she asks me to come get her. But otherwise, I guess, eat the brownies and do your trust falls and make friendship bracelets out of the Wordless Book colors.
Having said all that, I did decline to send her to a Christian sleepaway camp this summer. And the “My mom says to say…” line made me purse my lips and go all squinty.
‘100% nope her out of there’ = 👏🏻👍🏻😂
I don’t really disagree with your overall assessment, but it may be that their motivations really are more simple than that and the other family thinks Elizabeth might have fun. I am a Christian and very involved in my church, but I don’t try to evangelize in that way and question the motivations of people that do. (Really, do they think being a believer is just as simple as attending summer camp? I don’t think it’s that simple.) I have though invited my kids’ friends to events at our church (such as a fun Halloween event we have). When I have done so, it has been with the same motivations I would have inviting them to the zoo, or on a play date , or anything else. Maybe this is because I am in the South, deep in the Bible Belt and often church is a centerpiece of our social lives too. Anyhow, just wanted to add a different perspective. (I would hate to offend someone with one of my invitations, and they truly are made in the same spirit as an invite to anything.) (Then again, I am a Christian and think Trump is the worst so I am probably in the extreme minority. Ha!)
This is why I explained that I have reason to believe this is not just a casual camp invitation: I DO think sometimes families are just inviting without attempting to convert. I tried at first to list the other reasons, but it ended up looking kind of mean, and also seemed inappropriate to talk about someone else’s family that way. So you will have to take it on my credentials as a former Christian: there are reasons to believe this isn’t just a friendly casual invitation.
Ahhh, understood. I missed that part as I was panicking about things I have done that may have been misinterpreted. 🙂
Gurl I so identify with that feel
I seriously admire your restraint, as I fear I would have gone ballistic. It’s a sore point – my ex enrolled our two daughters in a scout-like movement here in France called the Eclaireurs. It’s a Protestant counterpoint to the actual French scout movement, which is very, very Catholic. I was not consulted about this and had very, very violent feelings about it. My elder daughter (16, but she lives exclusively with her dad) is also part of a Youth Group from her (also imposed, also against my wishes) Sunday School days, but when they do stuff, there doesn’t seem to be any religion at all; they’re now just a group of teenagers who meet up, camp in random places and have a ball. The Eclaireurs is also not particularly religous-y and both girls love it. But the whole religion side of it makes my blood boil, though there doesn’t seem to be much religious fervour in either of my daughters, thank goodness…
Do the Eclaireurs make eclairs at their meetings?? That’s all I could think when reading your comment.
I’m Jewish but I’m up for an all-eclair, all-the-time camp!
I grew up in the South, but only experienced being evangelicalized minorly and never felt pressured or pitied or left out. (Which I would love to believe demonstrates how confident and self-assured I was but in reality I think it just highlights how I am often clueless and don’t read undercurrents well, because I often miss the subtexts.).
So, now I am raising children in Utah, and, well, there really isn’t much subtext in my neighborhood from our Mormon neighbors! The culture is so strong here that I do worry about how my kids will handle it. So far I am going with the different people = different beliefs, and I am taking us to a Protestant church just so that if my kids do feel the need to turn to religion, they will hopefully have one to turn towards first.
I like you.
Disclaimer: I am a crazy liberal church person. But if you were a church person, why would you want to entice someone into church by saying it’s not REALLY about church? That shows a startling, telling lack of the courage of your convictions. It’s like you’re the witch in Hansel and Gretel. If I want to invite someone to a church-related thing, I make it perfectly clear what’s going on — not that those are conversions, I don’t do that, but I’m comfortable being a church person and saying so. Let people make up their own minds.
Yes, this, so much this. I don’t understand the need to trick people into belief. That’s gross and slimy and counter to everything I believe about a loving, accepting, patient God.
Agreed. We invited my son’s girlfriend to church because it’s amazing and we told her so. … and not for the coffee shop and music and “fun”. “God is good, come see “ , we told her, and she did. Choice was hers. It should just be a church visit. Not manipulation or control. We are too weak to think we have that much power over people in the end. That’s where Christians go wrong.
We are mostly athiests with a sprinkling of paganism. My 12 year old son has just begun to get regularly mistaken for a Mormon at school as he does not drink, do drugs or curse and generally likes hanging out with his family and is white white white. In these parts, that means you must be Mormon. He is taken aback by the comparison while I find it amusing. It’s like “hey world, you can be a good person without God telling you to.” The invites to camp and sunday school will be forthcoming and I dread the day his first crush will be on a mormon girl just as mine, also growing up in these parts, was on a mormon boy. We live side by side but will never, ever, ever embrace their bully tactics or fall for their serpent songs. NOPE. Dislcaimer and apologies to all Mormons- you are lovely people, just not my people.
“Hey world, you can be a good person without God telling you to.”
This x 1000.
People can be good without their government/laws telling them to too!
::sigh::
Been there, done that, with the evangelical friends. We’re raising our children without religion. Sure, they learn about it, but honestly, we’re talk to the kids about the Christian mythology the same way we talk to the kids about Roman mythology. I’m an atheist. Husband is an ex- Catholic. If the kids want to find a church or religion, they are totally able to explore their options on their own, but we will not be attending religious services as a family nor will they be allowed to proselytize to the rest of us.
Our oldest daughter plays on a Mormon run club soccer team- she’s in the religious minority, but it’s the best club in the area. At 14/15 the girls are nice to her, but they do not hang out outside of the soccer field. The parents are cordial on the sidelines, but the minority non Mormon families tend to hang out together in a group off to the side.
In the desert southwest it’s hard to find people who aren’t all guns and God, but we’ve found a small niche of similar non believers. If anyone asks what we do on weekends (a usual conversation starter to find out our religious leanings) we say sports, board games and booze, and leave it at that. My kids have been asked “aren’t you afraid you’ll go to Hell when you die?” (by other kids AND adults) and they say “there is no Hell.” I miss the New Englanders who consider religion to be a private thing and not so much in your everyday life.
TEACH ME YOUR WAYS. We just moved to Texas. We are atheists and hubby was raised Catholic. I want my daughters (age 3 and baby) to know things like Bible stories just as we know Greek myths- but I am at a loss as to how to explain the “God” part. I don’t want them to feel “less than” (as someone above perfectly stated) for not having a church, but it’s hard when people can be so pushy about it and atheism doesn’t exactly come with a nice long book of justifications and weekly meetings and summer camps. Love the “there is no hell” response, preach it! Er, you know what I mean.
When my children were very small we explained it to them as “the story of God,” because they understood what story meant, but had no idea what religion/faith/church/etc. were. And now, the older two, will still sometimes call it that when they’re talking about the issue.
For example, one of their very closest friends is definitely religious, but I’m waiting to find out if she is RELIGIOUS. I don’t think so, but it’s still unclear. One time she told my daughter about something good that God had done for her that day, then asked my daughter if God had done anything for her like that. My daughter, who is generally pretty good at coming up with something to say in awkward situations and who I want to be when I grow up, just made a noncommittal noise and replied, “That’s cool, I’m glad you had a good day.” And changed the subject.
As a family of secular homeschoolers this is an issue we actually deal with way more often than I had envisioned before having kids. Even though we live in the NE, most of the local homeschool groups are faith based (even going so far as to make you sign a statement of faith as a condition to join) and so whenever we meet anybody new at a homeschool activity there is an interesting little dance we have to do to figure out if we are about to be evangelized to.
Swistle, I just wanted to say it sounds like you’re handling this like a grown up and demonstrating/advising proper behavior to Elizabeth—even though it’s not always easy to keep some things inside, especially if this is a hot button issue for you, as you say. Good job. I feel you!
“…all guns and God….” What an apt phrase – love it!
I admire your restraint. I would be very, very upset.
First: I’m here for skeptic camp – both my children would attend and I’d be a counselor.
Seriously, though I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone I knew was Jewish (I was raised Catholic) and then I went to Catholic MS and HS so the whole concept of children proselytizing and trying to save people totally passed me by.
Now I live in a place that is super liberal and generally full of godless heathens so I’ve dodged this bullet for years. However, just this year Youngest has been in class and aftercare with a girl whose family is apparently of the evangelical bent because in the last 6 months or so Youngest has asked me to confirm that (1) evolution is real, (2) the earth is more than 6,000 years old, and (3) women are not required to be subservient to men because her friend has been telling her the opposite, the bible is her favorite book, and she wants Youngest to read it etc.
Suddenly I find myself threading the needle between telling Youngest that all of that is some crap but saying it kindly and also noting there is no point in trying to change Friend’s views but it’s best to just avoid talking about religion in general. What I really want to do is fire off a screed about this but Youngest is only 9 and I don’t want her firing off a screed at her young friend and I’m trying to teach tolerance but it’s HARD to be the bigger person. HARD.
Oof. I was raised in a nonreligious family, but my parents never said anything about their beliefs in until I was an adult. I grew up in the bible belt, we were members of the Jewish community center, and they never stopped me from going to church or (totally not about religion!) Church camps with my friends. I went because i am gullible and thought they really did want me to be there as my friends and they weren’t worried about my everlasting soul. I’ve never been lonlier or felt more out of place than I did at those camps.
That makes me so sad for you, but I am not surprised that it happened. I have have edited and deleted much of what I was going to post in this reply, but I’m just going to simplify my thoughts to this: I was once in that world (true believer) and I think evangelical Christians are some of the least empathetic humans I’ve ever encountered.
I was raised Catholic and one summer I went to a Christian camp which I guess my mom thought was fine? I learned at this camp that I was 1) not saved OMG! 2) Catholics are bad and worship false idols- Mary, the Saints, all those statues 3) and I was a total outcast. For being Catholic.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that my mom sent me to a camp without looking into it first, because getting a week off from parenting was the most important thing for her.
Oh yes. I am culturally Catholic, and my husband’s extremely Evangelical family is SO uncomfortable whenever I make reference to the Catholic way of doing things. It has actually inspired me to drop more hints of my family background into conversation with them, just to experience The Pause and The Blinking, and then the subject change. When I started doing it consciously, it also seemed to tamp down on the moments where they took the opportunity to make another attempt on my soul.
That (last part) is fantastic. I wish child me had been able to employ it. 😂😂
My only hope is that you are able to quickly let go of your late night arguments. I try so hard not to let that kind of stuff take up my brain space. Easier said than done!
Skeptic Camp does exist! https://www.campquest.org
I haven’t been, nor have any of my family members, but I hear about it on the podcast Oh No Ross and Carrie!
OMG. I actually got a lump in my throat.
Just jumping in to say that I looove Oh No Ross and Carrie and I think Swistle would love it too!
Hi, I don’t usually comment here but am a faithful reader. I love your writing, Swistle! As a pastor in a Baptist church in Canada, I felt torn when I read this post. I have great empathy for your feelings of protectiveness towards Elizabeth, and I understand that it is hurtful to suspect you are someone’s evangelism project. But I also want everyone to experience the love and presence of Jesus in their lives the way I have! So I also empathize with Sarah’s mother.
I know that often as Christians we don’t do ourselves any favours in the way we present our beliefs. Certainly we should never lie about our motives by saying something isn’t a faith-based ministry when it is! I have often given my kids invitations to give to friends about events at our church, and I have prayed for them to come and for their families to know that Jesus loves them. But this is not because I am judging them or looking down on them – I just truly believe that the joy, peace and love I have found in Christ is worth sharing! Thank you for giving me new insight into how these efforts might be received. I hope I can share my faith without causing offense to anyone. Your post has given me a lot to think about.
Honestly, I don’t think that there is a way to share your faith without offending people. Reading parts of your email, like Jesus loves you or finding joy in Christ make me cringe. Even if you are a really nice person and have good intentions, you will offend people if you use that type of language.
Yes, cringe-worthy language is the worst. Christianese deters many including me for a long time. I suggest reading Oswald Chambers or maybe CS Lewis. Learned Christians . They present the message in a challenging but beautiful way. There’s a book called Surprised by Joy ….. love the title as it’s exactly what I experienced when I prayed in a super dark moment and felt “something “. That was almost 20 yrs ago and I find new treasures all the time in the Bible that help me through this life . Good stuff. I swear. Oops!
I think the thing is, we all know about Jesus and what the bible says etc. It’s not 200 AD and we’re not all worshiping pagan gods and sending Christians to the lions. You need to trust that we have all the information we need to make a decision and we have made our decisions accordingly. And, you know what? Life without god is just as fulfilling, rich and enjoyable as one with god. So as good as your intentions are, don’t worry, we’re all good here.
THIS. :)
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I was raised semi-Catholic and have a good grasp on Jesus etc., but choose to go my own way and I am way happy about it. I am offended by someone who wants to push their beliefs on me because I’m “missing out” on Christ’s love. Won’t he love me whether I worship him or not? I’m not missing out, but thanks anyway.
As a Christian who has nonetheless ended up as the target of evangelizing efforts, I would gently suggest, first of all, it’s really impossible to determine whether or not another person knows Jesus, and second of all, even if you could somehow accurately determine their religious status, people of other (or no) religions feel equally passionate about their religions. It’s really hurtful to be told (or for it to be implied) that you’re wrong/unsaved/therefore doomed, even it is offered as a message of love. That doesn’t feel loving to be on the receiving end, any more than it would feel loving to a Christian to have a member of another religion/no religion evangelize to them and tell them how wrong their worldview is and how they’re doomed, or even how they’ll never know love unless they give up their religion/worldview.
I hope this doesn’t sound too harsh – it’s not my intention to criticize anyone for their religion or their beliefs, or even for their actions! Just positing a point of view that I think often gets lost, since Christianity, and evangelical Christianity, are so dominant in much of our society.
I would find any of your entreaties unbearable, condescending, and infantilizing,. it is not your business what I worship, or what I do not.
and Swistle–I admire your restraint. I would be incandescent with fury.
I admire that you are taking the high road and seem confident that Elizabeth can navigate this without a crisis in her friendship. It’s heartening!
This post really hits home…Sarah’s mother is my husband’s entire family. (Well, not literally, but you all know what I mean.) “I also know that back then, I would have felt very sorry for Elizabeth, whose parents Weren’t Saved and so weren’t teaching her The Good News. I would have been worried about this, and I would have had a strong mental image of their dark souls hungering for the light. ” That is his family’s vibe with us at all times. An unceasing vibe. We’re the unsaved outsiders, and they treat us with a kind of urgent pitying compassion and laser focus that gets very…intense.
For years we’ve navigated it with politeness, playing dumb, letting questions hanging in the air, bright smiles. But I’m not sure what will happen when my daughter gets older. They belong to a sect that doesn’t practice infant baptism, but instead baptizes at the age of reason (8-10 years old) which is almost worst. I would rather have my daughter baptized as an infant (do our duty, play along a bit, etc) and then let the religion question fade out, instead of the intense evangelism that kicks in later, to spur the “saving” and baptism.
My husband also has a close relative who married into a megachurch dynasty and has two children very close in age to our daughter, and they actively encourage the kids to all know each other. They’re several hours away from us but I wonder how visits will go when the divide is very clear. My daughter’s cousins will be attending Christian day school and a very big Evangelical church as relatives of the influential pastor. Maybe they will rebel by teen years? I don’t know.
I had a similar discussion with a Christian friend. I live in New Zealand and religion isn’t that big here, she’s one of the few people I know who regularly attends church. She was wondering why on earth anyone would have a problem with Christian groups going into public schools to teach about the bible, after all we say Karakia in schools often enough! Karakia are Maori (indigenous people of New Zealand) prayers and generally along the lines of “thank you to the earth mother for our food”. I don’t have a problem with that, they’re culturally appropriate in the context of where we live. I do have a problem with the bible being taught from an evangelical perspective, no matter how often anyone tells me they just want to teach us about religion! Not convert us at all! Especially considering popular biblical beliefs include me and my family burning in hell for eternity and my delightful toddler being riddled with original sin. No thank you very much.
I had a period in my 20s when I was evangelized all. the. time. And I started wondering what I was projecting to make it so easy. Like Swistle, I grew up in an evangelical Christian church. Now I attend a church that doesn’t stress this sort of thing and it’s a big relief!
One thing I learned, though, was how to handle the attention with compassion but not let anyone make me feel bad or trapped. No thank you, goodbye. It is never to early to use your words! Elizabeth will definitely have the experience again, so the more she hears your opinions and techniques, the better she will be able to deflect with the attention or argue with it or stop it or question it or whatever she chooses!
Elizabeth will have the experience again, not because of any particular belief or attribute, but because nearly all Americans will have the experience at some point, whether door to door or whatever!
I have a lot to say, but will try to be brief. I think that one of the contributing factors to off-putting/hurtful Christian evangelism is that (for some denominations) the stakes are just so high. The binary of saved vs not saved in combination with “through faith alone” often leads evangelicals to some degree of disingenuity and/or willful ignorance of the recipient’s very clear social cues. They, of course, know that outright lying is unacceptable but they also can’t risk letting one get away by coming on too strong or by inaction. The ends may justify the means if by getting someone in the door they have the opportunity to be saved.
I’m Catholic and I think more recently the church has been pushing people to evangelize, but I just think religion is a private thing. And maybe I’m a bad person, but I don’t care if anyone else gets saved. It’s every man for himself around here!
Anyway, I love the quote: “Preach the gospel. When necessary, use words.” I usually take that to mean: live a good life and leave people alone.
Such a squicky topic. My kids are still little but I dread the advent of this stuff.
Even if the intentions of the parent/child are not evangelical, I worry you don’t know what you’re getting with the camp. I grew up in a liberal, laid back church and never attended camp until I started going with a friend from a much different denomination. The family was not pushy—I truly believe I was invited to have fun. And some camps were fun. But the last one I attended. Gah. I was going to hell if I wasn’t saved and right with the lord. Constant prayer and sermons, heavy on the guilt and urgency, few actual activities, all sports/games/swimming were gender segregated (and the girls still had to wear T-shirt’s and shorts over their suits). Just…no.
Where I’ve been hurt by the Evangelism Issue is not by being evangelized TO (which has hardly ever happened me except in church where the speaker is trying to evangelize the whole audience). Where I’ve been hurt — and I’d say seriously hurt, in a way that I may never totally get over — is in being trained to the point where I’d call it brainwashing that I must evangelize others. And why? Because (so I was taught, though this is not true) GOD commands me to. I must be a do-er of the Word, not just a hearer only, and what does this mean? It means “WITNESSING.” I must be a salesman for the Gospel to every person I come in contact with — I must evangelize family, friends, neighbors, and it must be daily, it must be continual. I grew up in churches, neighborhood “Good News Clubs,” church girls’ groups, Sunday Schools, Bible camps, and children’s churches where this message (“YOU — you PERSONALLY”) are CALLED BY GOD to evangelize, and every day. It was an obsession. As a four-year-old, I was to be out there with my “wordless book” witnessing to my little friends and neighbors. One teacher told me (apparently thinking this was a message from God) that I didn’t have to witness to the whole WORLD, but only to every house within a one-mile radius of my house. This was supposed to take the pressure off. Meanwhile, I’m TOTALLY disinclined to this by temperament — that is, I seriously would rather die — not to mention the fact that God has never given me the slightest indication that he’s telling me to do this. Fortunately for me, I read the Bible for myself cover to cover, and it’s just not there. While God might have given the task of evangelism (and the talent for it and the all else that would be needed) to some people, he did NOT give it to me. He had other things in mind. The Evangelism Nazis have a lot to answer for.
I go to a liberal-ish (moderate but feels liberal in comparison) evangelical-ish church right now, which is lovely and refreshing. The youth director told me that when they have VBS (vacation Bible school), of course any child is welcome, but she is always surprised when parents without a connection to the church choose to drop off their children with total strangers. I had never thought of it that way, but she’s right–it really does sound crazy!
The church I went to before this–I feel like I escaped from it–was creepy about evangelism, and in many other ways. We lived in an ok neighborhood in a sort of tough town, and the church met in our town, but most of the church people lived farther away, in well-off suburbs (the tough town was also a suburb, just not well off). Periodically the pastor and others at church would talk about trying to get people to move into our neighborhood as a means of evangelism. We lived there because we liked it–it had old homes with good character and we could walk to some great restaurants and parks from our house. Hearing church people talk that way about MY neighborhood made me feel all kinds of icky. I sure didn’t want them to ruin my neighborhood with people who thought it was a sacrifice to live there!
Swistle, sheesh, what a thing to have to deal with. You and Elizabeth are great.
For me it’s like going gluten free or whatever. If that’s right for you then I’m happy for you, I’m glad it works for you, and I’m perfectly capable of learning about it for myself and deciding what I want to do for me.
When we get people at the door, I generally say brightly, “Not interested, thank you,” and shut it. My husband many years ago used to gently preach atheism at this one Jehovah’s Witness who kept coming back. He also invited two Mormon teenagers into the garage where they happily played pool for half an hour and then left. He puts more effort into his refusals than I do, and he remains just as set in his own ways.
Ugh. My kids go to school near both a Mormon church and a large evangelical church. They are still fairly young, and almost two years ago we joined a UU church partly in the hopes that being able to answer “yes” to the “Do you go to church” question would put off some attempts at conversion. Unfortunately, my older daughter has had a lot of God-related questions and comments lately that I think come from her friends. She is a very literal child and has a hard time understanding the concepts of belief vs. fact. I realize some of this comes with age, but for her particular personality, it seems especially difficult to understand that something someone tells her might not be true. (She is very honest and has a hard time even with imaginative games involving fantastical elements she knows aren’t real. Her pretending is very reality based.) To exacerbate the problem, her beloved cousin comes from a not-evangelical but very conservative Christian family, and she swallows everything he tells her, including that ghosts are real. I shudder to think as they get older what he might try to convince her of. I do my best to impart my own beliefs, but she is also very contrary, and really likes for me to be wrong about things. It’s just incredibly stressful any time it comes up because I have to walk a fine line between letting her come to her own conclusions vs. telling her what to believe. Anyway, I think you’re handling it really well, but totally sympathize with the mental arguments that keep one up at night.
I am so thankful to have read this. My in-laws go to a Lutheran church, but my husband and I don’t attend church. I was raised Catholic. I don’t love a lot of what that church teaches/has done, but I don’t think most other organized religions are much better. Lately I’ve been much more interested in learning about indigenous beliefs/values (thinking ahead 7 generations, for instance). ANYWAY. My in-laws have been telling my son about all the wonderful reasons he should be going to church and sunday school (Jesus!), and he keeps asking about it (he’s 8), and I’m just…no. And then kids at his public school (it better have been kids!!!) were talking about evolution and dinosaurs and what they believed that is not backed by science, and I just have not figured out how to address any of this without saying “your grandparents are telling stories to guilt me and your dad, and the kids in your class are wrong.”
I don’t know how to handle any of this, but this post and the comments have at least given me someplace to start.
Ugh, that kind of thing would get on my nerves, too.
I’m non-religious, and always have been. (I wouldn’t call myself an atheist, but I don’t belong to a church of any kind.) My best friend is a devout Christian, and belongs to a branch of Christianity that has a bit of a problematic reputation in many circles. And she has never once given me the sales pitch. She’ll bring her faith up in conversation occasionally–e.g. mentioning something that happened in her church group, or offering to pray for me if I’m going through a rough time–but it’s never been about trying to convert me or insisting that I Let Jesus Into My Heart. It’s always come with a subtext of “this has been a great thing for ME PERSONALLY, but you do whatever you feel is best for you.” And honestly? While I’m still not religious, that sort of attitude has helped me me see religion in a positive light far more than evangelism ever could.
Thanks for another amazing post, Swistle!
This brings up a lot of feelings and issues I’m dealing with as well. We’re in Texas- and when people meet you in Texas, it’s generally with questions. Who are you, who’s your family, and what church do y’all go to? Lots of activities for kids are through the local churches and I don’t want my child to miss out on the fun stuff or be held up as an example of a sad unsaved souls that needs prayers.
Finally catching up on comments today. I grew up in the Lutheran church, and I do not know what it is about those stoic Lutherans, but they couldn’t care less about converting people. In my experience anyway. I never once was asked to bring a friend to Sunday School, and I went to Lutheran Bible Camp and I can’t recall even one time talking about bringing people to Jesus. Maybe it’s the Scandinavian/ German influence. Who knows.
So, I was totally shocked when I went with my friend to her church for Bring a Friend day, when I was about sixteen or so. She asked me to come and I thought what the hey, I go to church every Sunday anyway. Why not go with her? Well. I kept getting all these postcards in the mail about coming to church more often and I was like…but I do? Just not this one? And then I went to a youth group thing with her – again, my church had a youth group, it was fun, I thought it would be okay – and same thing! People kept pushing Jesus on me BUT I WAS ALREADY THERE.