Now that I am not religious, it feels to me as if EVERYONE is religious. EVERYONE. But when I was religious, it felt like it was a rare and special thing to find someone else who was, too. It’s like chicken/beef recipes: when I have two pounds of chicken about to turn on me, it seems like all the yummy recipes are made with beef; when I want to try Edward on some red meat, all the yummy-sounding recipes are chicken.
I’d like to do a poll to get an idea of what the actual percentages are. Has your heart already started pounding with all the scientific/statistical problems inherent in this experiment? But I don’t care much about the population at large: I’m more interested in the percentages of the population I hang around with. And I’m not going to worry about the integrity of non-verified, voluntary-response data collection, or whatever. So we won’t try to apply the poll results to The World or anything—it’s more like a party game.
Here is another huge issue to contend with: what “religious” means. I use the word religious deliberately, even though when I was religious I was fond of saying I was NOT religious “and neither was Jesus,” or whatevs. But we need a word that includes ALL the religions, and “religious” IS IN FACT the word used for that. I understand if it makes you flinch a little, and alternate suggestions are welcome though unlikely to be used: a word that means religious but isn’t “religious” is something that religions would have figured out by now if it existed, I think. And I’m not using “spiritual,” because that one makes me flinch even more, and also I’d say it’s LESS accurate than “religious.”
So does this make sense so far? In this situation we are using “religious” in its nice, loose, no-flinching-required, “we need a good loose category-describing word here and I don’t think we have a word better than this one” sense. “Well, I believe in God and Heaven but I don’t really belong to a PARTICULAR religion” or “I’m a [name used for a member of a certain religion], but I’m not RELIGIOUS” are invalid statements for our purposes. We ALL would prefer to use a word that didn’t have some of the connotations of the word “religious,” but this is what we’ve got.
There is a huge, HUGE spectrum for what “religious” includes, especially when we are trying to cover more than one religion, and I am going to break that down into very rough categories which, as the editor of our local paper says about editing letters, never makes anybody happy. NONE OF US will be happy with these categories. NONE OF US, including me. We are just all going to have to choose the one that BEST represents us, and resist the temptation to say, “Well, I can’t vote because none of these categories describes the EXACT set of feelings/attitudes I have, which I will now list for you in multiple, detailed paragraphs.” [Though you MAY do the multiple, detailed paragraphs on their own, if that would be fun.] EVERYONE belongs to a Religion of One, and there is no poll for that. Instead we are looking for APPROXIMATE CLUMPS.
The category descriptions are merely samples to give you the gist of what I’m looking for—I wanted something that would be more helpful than just “A Little Religious” or “Strongly Religious,” since one person’s “strongly” might be another person’s “medium-low.” I’ll list a number of attributes for each level that MAY OR MAY NOT APPLY to a particular member of that level. You may VERY WELL find that you belong right in between two categories, or that you are a mix of two or three; in that case, pick the one that feels MOST like you. (If they are exactly equal, flip a coin.) Or you may find that you belong to one category for the most part, but one single descriptive point for that category is completely wrong; that’s okay, go ahead and choose it if it’s the category that suits you best OVERALL. This is not a poll to reveal the exact location on the spectrum of any one individual, so these “had to pick one that wasn’t quite right” answers (i.e., the answer of EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO VOTES) should average out overall to show us a group picture.
You may guess from my examples that I was brought up Christian. I tried to make the categories inclusive of religions in general, but I think the Christian thing will still end up seeping through, since that’s the only one I’m familiar with. I thought about trying to give examples from other religions, but it seemed like that was the sort of thing that could misfire and/or cause additional confusion. You may have to modify language, therefore, to get the GIST of the category: if I’ve said “deity” but you believe in a group of deities, or if I said “pray” but you’d use a different word for a different-but-similar type of activity, that still works for these categories. I have confidence that this is something we can manage.
Also, I left out crazy people. That is, I think that many of the people in the extreme categories are people using religion to justify stuff that has nothing to do with religion, to the appalled horror of other people in that religion. So I didn’t make a category for them. If you are a crazy person, you can choose whatever category you feel best describes you.
Let’s start at one end of the spectrum and work down:
1. Not Religious. This doesn’t require you to go around being ACTIVELY NON-RELIGIOUS all the time (though that’s an option). You don’t have to have a Darwin fish on the back of your car (but you can). Maybe you feel a little dismay when you find out someone with Friend Potential is religious, or maybe you don’t care. Maybe you scoff at religion, or maybe you don’t. Maybe you allow for the possibility of one of the many religions being true, or maybe you don’t. But you would not say, “Well, God has a plan for us all” or say that people who die go to heaven. You would circle “none” on the part of the hospital form about religious affiliation.
2. A Little Religious. You don’t go to church, or maybe you go for the Christmas Eve service. You are comfortable with religious-type words/songs, and you might say “God has a plan for us” or refer to people as looking down on us from heaven, but you might not know if there’s an actual god or actual heaven, or be investigating it further. You’re okay with a lot of different religions, as long as they don’t get pushy with you. You don’t necessarily think any one religion is “right.” Your own religious life might mix-and-match quite a bit, or you might try different things sometimes. You’re okay with word substitution: you’d be fine with saying/hearing “God, or Allah, or The Universe, or whatever you believe in.” You pray sometimes, but mostly in the “Please let him be okay” type way. If you found out all the religions were untrue and this was all there was, you might be disappointed but you would be fine.
3. Medium-Low Religious. You belong to a church: it’s an excellent way to meet people and participate in the community, and a good solid foundation for your kids. You like it and you like participating in it and it gives you a good feeling to do so, and you think of it as the sort of activity that makes people better overall. You’d prefer a political candidate to be the same religion as you, but you wouldn’t necessarily make that the deciding factor or anything. You don’t get into intense theological arguments with other people, and you don’t object if people belong to other religions than yours. If you found out your religion was untrue, you’d be upset for awhile but you’d be okay in the long run—and you might think an organization LIKE religion should keep going for the other benefits of it.
4. Medium-High Religious. You belong to a church, and you participate regularly (or you don’t right now but really feel you should as soon as it’s possible). You teach your children the stories belonging to your religion; you pay attention to their religious education, and think it’s important that they get it. You would be upset/worried if they didn’t grow up as believers. You pray fairly regularly and/or think you should do it more. You accept your religion’s structure for how things work: there is an actual supernatural world with actual real supernatural entities in it; there is a heaven and/or a hell and/or other supernatural location where humans go after death. If there is a difficult issue to figure out where you stand on it, you’d take your religion into account while deciding. If you had to make a short list of words describing who you were, your religious affiliation would be in there for sure. You feel your religion is the right one, though other religions may come close. If you found out your religion was untrue, it would be intensely upsetting and you would have to completely restructure your life and beliefs around this new information.
5. Strongly Religious. Everything in life is seen through the filter of religion. It is absolutely true, and of ultimate importance. It is pretty horrifying to imagine your children losing the faith, because it matters in an eternal way. The supernatural elements described by your religion are just as real (or more real) than the reality of the Earth and the humans and animals and so forth. There is an actual deity who actually exists, and there is no question about that (though feeling occasional doubt can be considered normal because of our failings as humans and because of attacks on our faith). Other religions have it wrong to varying degrees. If someone you love disagrees with your interpretation of a religious issue, it can be a very big deal. If you found out your religion was untrue—well, it’s too upsetting to consider that hypothetical.
Okay! Let’s just TRY this. Remember that none of the categories are going to describe you exactly. And it’s anonymous, so you don’t have to worry that you “ought to” choose a different category. As much as is possible with something like this, choose the one that actually best describes your actual level of religion.
[yop_poll id=”4″]
Where’s the “militant atheist” option? ;P
I was wondering the same thing!
“Not Religious.” It doesn’t matter how fervently you’re not religious: it’s like being non-male, as opposed to like being non-tall.
That’s funny, I would have said “strongly religious” except your worldview is atheist and not Christian or whatever. All the criteria match up, teaching your children about it, thinking other people are wrong, being distressed if you found out you yourself were wrong, even “evangelizing.”
I see where you’re getting that, but I disagree. I think “not believing in religion” is a world apart from “believing in religion,” despite the similarities about preferring one’s children to agree with one’s point of view and so forth. Or at least, it’s a world apart for the purposes of this poll: if people vote “Strongly Religious” when they’re atheists, that doesn’t give me the information I want to know.
I definitely get that. :)
I get that, I voted #1, but somehow it just didn’t feel strong enough to describe an atheist raised in an atheist (including almost all extended) family that has absolutely zero to do with anything religious. The one time I ever set foot in a church was when I went into a basement thriftshop. :)
Yes—it might be neat to later have another poll measuring intensity of NON-religious feelings (and then “religious” would be just one category on that poll).
Fascinating!
I’m hoping you’re going to write a follow-up to this post about your own experience! I’ve noticed you mentioning in other posts that you were raised Christian and no longer consider yourself religious, and I have wondered how you got from Point A to Point B, how it affected your relationship with your parents, etc. I also understand if you don’t want to open yourself up to the comments such a post might inspire, but you have at least one reader who would be interested in reading about it!
I feel a little voyeuristic saying that I would love to read that, too. But then again, that’s kind of blogging, isn’t it? Anyway, I would love to hear your story someday, if you were willing to share it.
I wouldn’t be unwilling or shy—but I’ve found it’s hard to communicate it in terms that don’t Sound Bad. For example, the short and most accurate version of what happened is that I realized it wasn’t true—probably very, very similar to how it dawns on a child that Santa Claus isn’t real. But…imagine how awful and attacky and aggressive that sounds to someone who fervently believes it IS true, even though for me it’s a neutral description of what happened—just as it would be for the child and his story about why he abandoned his relationship with Santa Claus.
But if I try to use a more careful and gentle description of what happened, I get questions about did I maybe just have a bad experience with a particular religious person or institution? Which from my point of view sounds really, really terrible TOO: how could anyone think I’d ABANDON A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE because I…didn’t get along with another Christian? I’m genuinely offended by the implications of that kind of question. It’s like implying I’d divorce my husband because I had a single poor impression of a male cat—or like saying a child would stop believing in Santa Claus because ANOTHER child who believed in Santa Claus was kind of unpleasant. I would have ditched ALL Christians and ALL churches before I’d have let them ruin a relationship with God.
I think it’s one of those topics that’s like trying to have a conversation in two languages: no one is going to end up understanding things afresh from it, and feelings are going to get hurt/riled.
Your last line about talking in different languages is such a good way of explaining how that conversation often goes.
I’m always curious how nonreligious people raise their children – which sounds really lame, but I hope you know what I mean. Because you don’t want to be the one parent who from the get-go says there is no Santa and the kid goes around ruining the Santa believers’ Christmas enjoyment. And you don’t want him to be THAT KID that doesn’t believe in Santa and that makes him different. But to you, there is no Santa, and you’re okay with teaching your kids that and you do want him to know that OTHERS do believe in Santa and that we should respect their beliefs even if they don’t really get why we don’t believe in Santa. And sometimes, I just sit there and just want to throw my hands up and say, “okay, okay, fine Santa for all,” but then I feel like that’s not who I am, and then I feel like I’m just giving my kids my beliefs which is what I don’t want to do at all. I don’t know why I substituted Santa there, but it seemed less assholely and less militant than the alternative. I just sometimes feel so conflicted on the kid issue, because I’m perfectly fine with my own decision not to be religious, but I kind of struggle with what that means for my children.
Sarah – it’s much easier than you think. Once you get okay with your non-beliefs in your own head, you are quite right with them for your children. In fact, it’s often the idea of deciding what to tell your kids that makes you honest with yourself about your beliefs. I just couldn’t teach my kids something I believe to not only be untrue but to be harmful. We live in part of the bible belt. It’s been fine, a few issues here and there but nothing dramatic, in fact I’m often pleasantly surprised.
I agree with Amanda that it is much easier than you think. It seems complicated but it really doesn’t come up all that much. I often turn the question on him and ask him what he believes. And I answer questions for him based on what I believe (nothing) but I am very clear that other people believe other things. Also, my MIL is in the Medium-High realm and if she wants to take him to church or sign him up for Bible camp, etc., I am fine with that and I think it allows him to know and understand that other people believe other things.
My kids are 6 and 7 and we have always used this sentence to start off any discussion about why — Different people believe different things, different families have different rules. My kids have always responded really well to this as a jumping off point.
My older daughter just recently asked me about God because she has a good friend A and the subject must have come up between them. It was really funny because apparently her friend A was explaining to my daughter that she doesn’t believe in Santa and that’s how they stumbled into the subject of God. After we discussed it for a few minutes she said that she was glad A believes in God because she (A) doesn’t believe in Santa and it was good for her to believe in something.
“Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion” addresses dealing with death and loss when you don’t ascribe to heaven and hell/afterlife. I’m agnostic and I tell my kids that the questions that they have are ones that people have been debating for thousands of years and no one really knows what happens when we die. I try to stress that it’s pretty amazing that we are even HERE.
The most comforting (and funny) “answer” to what happens after we die I ever heard is from a scene in the movie “Hannah and Her Sisters” Woody Allen’s character has decided to convert to Christianity. After telling his parents he asks his father, “Well, don’t you ever wonder if there’s more after you die?” and his father says, “What do I care? I’ll be unconscious.”
This is so great. So Swistle-ish. I’m very interested in the results.
This is so interesting!! Can’t wait to see the results and any follow-up. I’d also be willing to write and link a post as follow-up…if that is something that interests you. That way, if you do something along the lines of what Ellen suggested, you wouldn’t be the only one putting yourself “out there” on this topic.
Yes, I second this. Except that picture me seconding this while cringing in fear. But I’m trying to be more brave, and being open and articulate about my faith certain falls under that category.
I really appreciate how you were able to describe all of the categories without being scoff-y about any of them.
What’s fascinating to me is that I would have pretty much exactly the same categories, but my definitions/guidelines to help people decide where to go would be so very different! Food For Thought.
Much like when I said on Facebook, “Hey, would anyone want me to make a secular parenting group? Would you join?” I was delighted by the response then and also here!
I just want you to know that this is VERY HARD for a unitarian universalist.
what Ellen said, too, and I would write a blog post as well if you wanted to make it A Whole Thing ;)
vanessa- YES! ME! I am an active UU (teach in Sunday school, go every possible week), but it is such a unique religion (I almost put that word in quotes. Almost.) that its very hard to chose a category.
HA! I was the youth director at my church for a few years and I have taught owl for a bunch of years and i still have trouble saying it’s a religion. even though i BELIEVE IT FUNDAMENTALLY.
I know you said people should pick a category and not leave long comments explaining why they didn’t precisely fit in any one category, but maybe they could do both? I think it would be really interesting to hear how different people would divide up the categories.
Sure!
I love polls! I’m a 2 leaning toward 1…
I did pick a category, as asked. I cannot resist leaving a comment, with my justifications though.
My beliefs are completely non-religious. My actions are medium-low religious. I tell people I am culturally Christian. I don’t believe it, but I participate for family reasons.
Another “cultural Christian” here Rachel. I have to say, this whole thread is incredibly comforting to me. I voted 2, but am definitely leaning towards 1.
Thanks for this! I don’t know if you saw Dan Savage’s thing about NALT (Not All Like That) Christians where they put up videos about supporting gay marriage and so forth. I am medium-high religious but want to put lots of “but Not Like That!” disclaimers :)
Same here, Velocibadgergirl.
2, leaning toward 1. What an interesting poll to follow.
This is hard because I’m not debating between, say, #2 and #3, but #2 and the 2nd #4 (aka #5 — you have two #4’s).
I guess it’s hard because I don’t fit in any of those categories, and I know you said pick the best one, but I’m only 50% on two of them and was hoping to be closer to 80% in order to confidently choose one.
Thanks—fixed it!
I have been thinking about this a lot lately, actually. I was raised Catholic, but I generally only go to church on Christmas. I still believe in God, but I don’t necessarily believe that the way to be in his good graces is to go to church. I think that what I do on a day-to-day basis is more important. And I also don’t ever pray, but I always used to tell people I would keep them in my prayers when something bad happened to them. So I have stopped saying things like, “You’re in my prayers,” and have started saying something like, “I am sending love and light your way,” or, “All my good thoughts are with you.”
My other issue is that I can’t find it in myself to believe that one religion is the only way to heaven. I know plenty of people who are very faithful to their religions that believe something different from what I was taught when I was growing up. And their conviction that they are right is no less than the conviction of Catholics that they are right. So who is right? It’s not up to me to say, so I just keep trying to be the best person I can and hope that will get me where I am supposed to be going.
So spiritual but not religious? I guess that is what I consider myself?
Hmmm. Interesting that so many voted — wow! I am a two, I think, maybe leaning toward 3. My DH is a 1. My DS is an elementary schooler trying to figure all this out in a town with a pronounced UU sort of ethos, but in a larger context that is Bible Belt, and I’m trying not to be too specific about “we DO [or DON’T] believe this” while still giving him enough info. about (a) what options are available and (b) my perspective on them. My DH is more of the “we DON’T believe …” approach, so that’s kind of challenging.
I think this is very interesting, and I hope people do leave comments describing their journeys. I am an atheist, so I am interested to hear how people came to their beliefs or their lack of them.
I once explained to a friend, that the Catholic faith that I was raised in, always felt like a sweater that was too tight. It felt wrong, even when I was a child. It took me a while to actually come clean to myself, I wasn’t an agnostic (which felt safe to me), but I was an atheist. The only one in my family-which makes it a bit difficult at times!
I’m an agnostic. Raised sort of Catholic and I went through an atheist phase. I’ve decided to sit on the fence because I really think that it’s impossible to know if there’s a God/what happens when we die etc. And frankly, if there is some deity I think that the whole situation is much more compacted than we know about. I think religion can be a great source of comfort for some people and I love the feeling of belonging to something greater than myself (the Catholic Church is over a thousand years old!) but organized religion just isn’t my thing. I also think people need to be more respectful of other people’s choices and beliefs.
I agree with Vanessa above about this setup being difficult for UUs, but given how many UUs get there by not fitting in anywhere else, really it’s kind of perfect. I responded medium-low, because that paragraph is the best match for me, but as far as my level of involvement, which has increased of late, I’m more like medium-high. I don’t pray regularly, and I’m not into the supernatural so much. On the other hand, I’m the freaking chair of the Sunday school committee, and I don’t even have kids! Between the Sunday service and various meetings and classes and things, tomorrow will be the 5th day in a row I’ve been in the building. Probably for the baggage the word carries, I’m extremely hesitant say I’m religious at all. Despite that fact, I find myself very involved in a faith-based community.
your last sentence is basically my life. especially when i was youth director.
Religion is so not a thing for me. I don’t believe in a higher power and I don’t really thing that that’s really a knowable/quantifiable thing anyway, but I’m not “searching”, I just don’t care. It’s so far beyond the scope of “things I need to worry about”.
That said, I always flinch a little when I find out people are religious, despite the fact that I know and am close to some people who are VERY religious. They are people who are good about not pushing their faith.
I wasn’t really surprised by the results, because as an extremely religious person, i’ve noticed that *everyone* has always been less religious than I. But I wanted to put in a good word for us extremists: we really are not all like that. I don’t even think of myself as conservative, unless we’re talking about anything fiscal.
I agree; I voted “medium-high” for myself (great descriptions!) and have noticed that being truly thoughtful and consistent in one’s faith can result in a very surprising and interesting mix of views on social and political issues, a mix which doesn’t neatly fall into a “conservative” or “liberal” category.
What a thoughtful reply. I love your point. People are nuanced, whole characters. I learn this all the time (you’d think I would remember it, one of these days, and not be constantly surprised by people being nuanced and different from my own mind)!
Oh man. This is so interesting. I’m having a tough time choosing between 1 and 2.
I don’t care if someone else is religious, at all. I definitely would not say “God has a plan for us all” and I don’t think there is a heaven, I really don’t. I WOULD circle “none” on a religious form.
BUT. Two:
“…you might not know if there’s an actual god…” I am totally open to there perhaps being a god of some sort. I am TOTALLY okay with a lot of different religions – I’m quite interested in them, really. I’m okay with word substitution: I can read things that have a Christian focus and just kind of shift things to my own beliefs (which is kind of: “hey there’s no HEAVEN pay off or anything, but you should probably just try to be kind and fair and a decent human being, you know.”) I don’t PRAY but I do think “Please let him be okay” and “Oh please let so and so do okay at their thing today” and “So and so is hurting, please let her get through this tough time” type stuff. I don’t know who I’m talking to when I do.
“If you found out all the religions were untrue and this was all there was, you might be disappointed but you would be fine.” Hmmm. HMMMMM. I think I’m 99% sure all the religions ARE untrue (sorry anyone who just cringed!) and I’m fine with that. I’d be upset for people who really BELIEVED their version of events was the 100% truth and just had their world shattered, but also, I’d be like “HA HA you big fat jerks who have been using religion to hate people YOU ARE WRONG SUCK IT” and that would make me really happy.
I think the thing is: I believe there very well could be some sort of “god”. I do. But I am pretty close to 100% not believing the Bible is a true story. I think people have always had some sort of faith and have always wanted to try to explain or document it and at some point people started writing stuff down according to the civilization and society and moral culture they lived in at the time and boom. Bible. I believe Jesus was probably a real guy. And a good one at that. I just doubt he was the actual son of god (sorry again, people who believe he is!)
So, man. I just don’t know. I believe there may be some sort of higher power. But I don’t consider myself religious, because i don’t follow any one religion. If there IS a god, of any form, I wish s/he would just definitively answer shit and get all the horrid fighting and hate in the world done in the name of religion freaking OVER WITH and just encourage people to be kind to one another and mind their darn own business.
Man, Lara. You just emptied my head here in that comment.
I’m interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the word “religious”. Do some people not like that word? I’ve never thought about that before.
I think for a lot people, it’s that the word “religious” clumps their true beliefs in with the untrue beliefs of other things calling themselves religions: I remember feeling that Christianity was DIFFERENT and couldn’t just be LUMPED IN with superstitions and false gods as if it fell into the same category.
It can also be because the word “religious” sometimes gets used negatively/dismissively: “I don’t know, he’s just so RELIGIOUS”—to mean pious, unpleasant, self-righteous, fun-hating, judgey people.
And finally, “religious” may assume/imply an affiliation with “organized religion” (another term often used negatively), as opposed to referring to a personal faith. Some people want to break the association between “believing” and “belonging to a religion”—even if they DO IN FACT belong to an organized religion, or especially if they don’t.
For our purposes here, though, we’re using words like “religion,” “beliefs,” “spirituality,” and “faith” just about interchangeably, just to make sure we include everyone. Most of the objections to the word “religious” are ways of separating oneself from other people, but we’re looking for ways of joining people up.
I’m glad someone asked that question–I was wondering too!
Ooh, interesting and fun poll! Leave it to you to bring up such a potentially controversial topic and have it be all about the information and zero about whose way is better. You rule. (Can Swistleism be my religion?)
“Remember that none of the categories are going to describe you exactly.” Actually, you nailed me with choice #1. I would be interested in a post about how you moved from your Christian upbringing to your current beliefs. I think we might have a lot in common there. (My grandparents and one of my parents’ siblings were career international missionaries of the faith I was raised in. Almost all the relatives of my generation would be in your #5 category, or at least #4. Little bit hard to be the heathen nonbeliever when religion runs that deep in the family.)
Swistleism! Dig it!
I’m a 2, and voted 2, but is it wrong that when i have children i want to be a 3?
I don’t think so! I was raised in a #4 type family, and ended up a #2 once I articulated things for myself. But I voted #3 because since I’ve had kids I’ve become more involved in the church. I think Swistle did a great job of articulating that specific mindset. I may not agree with/believe in everything, but I do think it’s a good foundation for the kids and a way to participate in things that I want to help with (ie soup kitchens, “good works” type things). And I’d totally make Swistleism my religion!
I think the categories as you described them are pretty great. I am “not religious” but of the nonactively not religious variety. I sometimes wish I WAS religious, especially around Christmas time. While I do believe that it has become a cultural holiday as much as a religious one, and thus I have every right to celebrate, I often wonder what it would be like to really believe, and to observe all the religious traditions of the holiday, not just the cultural ones. On the flip side, I sometimes feel a little dismay (perfect way to describe it!) at finding out a potential friend is religious, if only because, like you said, I feel like SO MANY people I know are 4s or even 5s on the scale. And then I hear religious people talk about how hard it is to find people with similar “values,” and I’m confused because I seem to encounter people with those values all the time. So this poll is very interesting to me.
Haven’t read all the comments yet but I just love that in the headline, we’re A Group. :)
I’m a 2, maybe leaning toward a 3. My family doesn’t attend church and honestly, I’d rather sleep in on Sundays than get up, get dressed up and go to church.
My husband won’t let the kids play outside during church hours on Sundays for fear the neighbors will figure out that we don’t go.
I received a phone call a couple of weeks ago at 10:30 on a Sunday morning. My husband as amazed that someone would call at that time on a Sunday morning and joked that I should have asked if I could call them back as we were on our way to church.
I replied, “God doesn’t care if we go to church, but I think He might care if we lie about going to church.”
I think that sentence pretty much sums up my feelings about religion and church. I believe in a higher power but definitely don’t think any one organized religion is The Religion, if that makes sense.
This is so interesting. I love that you asked it.
Since I can’t help but explain myself, I picked #3, but was close to picking #4. I’m a Lutheran. I go to church pretty often and find that it always makes for a better week for me. And I’d consider my faith very important to me, even though I kind of fail at it.
I found myself in a bit of a ‘crisis’ of faith a few years ago when there started to be too much politics in my church. I was uncomfortable with all of it, but especially when they started talking taxes and the military. Once I found another church I was OK and I realized that, for me, the most basic principle was doing good and being good. Pretty basic and values you can have, religious or not, but for me God is a big part of it.
I fall in the #1 to #2 category but #2 is closest so that’s what I chose. Honestly, I float and I’ve been wondering lately exactly what I am. I don’t know. I was raised Lutheran, went to a private Lutheran college, I would say I had a strong faith but did not talk much about it. Faith has always been a very private, personal thing to me. As I got older and discovered the politics and controversy within most Christian religions (probably non-Christian too, but I have no personal experience there), I started moving away from “organized” religion. I can relate to many of the commenters here in that I think it is most important to be kind to others – people and animals – and take care of each other and the planet.
I’m an introvert and am reading the book “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking” and was very intrigued by the author’s perspective of introversion and religion/faith. It makes me wonder how this factors into my own experiences.
Firstly, crap! I mis-voted. I selected medium-low instead of medium high. I’ve thrown the whole accuracy off.
I’d love for a follow-up post and possibly a link up, so you’re not the only one putting yourself out there.
I guess the short version is I consider myself fairly religious, but I only want that as a guide for my life, and understand very much that others’ lives can be guided by many other influences.
I am pleasantly shocked by the results thus far (685 votes 38% not-religious)
I voted number one, very easy for me as I’m an atheist and was raised in a non-religious family. I’d describe myself as a secular humanist if we’re using long words but usually I don’t think about religion at all.
Oh, one of the earlier comments reminded me of something. A while back I saw a family who live down our road, leaving the house in smart clothes, about 10:30am on a Sunday morning. I remarked to my husband that they must be going out for Sunday lunch but they were a bit early. He gave me an odd look and pointed out they were probably going to church (I have never been to church just for a service, only for weddings, funerals, Scout/Guide events).
I’m a 2 I think. I’d like to be a 3 but there are no local covens currently for me to join. I have been in one but the High Priest & 2 other members are deployed so we sort of disbanded for awhile.
I get flinchy when people say they are atheists. Because the ones I know in real life are so judgy & arrogant about it it’s impossible to talk to them about any religious or spiritual topic without getting a flat ‘superstitious bullshit’ type response. Which gives you no room for discussion.
I’m a Wiccan living in an area where you can’t swing a cat without hitting a church. “What church do you go to?” is one of the first 3 questions most new acquaintances ask of people, so I do know a few things about being on the defensive about religion or lack thereof, but personally I enjoy a good respectful discussion of various faiths & belief systems. I’m not out to convert anyone to my faith and if you feel the same we can have a great time talking about the similarities & differences. But if the response is along the lines of “You are wrong and a fool for believing what you do”, which I get far more from atheists than Christians in real life, it tends to make me all vague and ‘not religious’ when dealing with people
I myself am a militant atheist. I choose not to discuss it with anyone who believes differently because…well we aren’t going to agree so why have this conversation…but I won’t lie if asked directly. I’ve found over the years that the least irritating (to the asker) response to the “Where do you go to church?” question (which is asked as soon as you meet a person in these parts) is “oh we aren’t religious”, rarely does anyone ask questions after that. I was raised catholic but never believed any of it. I would sit in the pews at church and wonder if I was the only one who thought this was all ridiculous, the only one who got that “I’m talking but no one is listening” feeling. My mother is culturally catholic and hates that my kids aren’t baptized but if you press her on any particular belief of the catholic church she’ll say she doesn’t agree with them so…whatever lets you sleep at night mom. :) My FIL told us that he didn’t approve of how we’re raising our kids, the same kids he hasn’t seen in four years. Yeah I’m not taking advice from him. My MIL is christian and tells us that she respects our beliefs and loves us. Mostly it’s not a major issue.
We’ve always taught the kids about other religions along with what we believe. I let them choose how they wanted to handle it with their friends. As they get older and more confident they are better about being vocal about what they believe. Several of the kids at school have been kind enough to inform them that they’re going to hell ::eyeroll:: which is super awesome for kids to be talking about, but I had talked enough about it that the kids thought it was ridiculous.
I voted yesterday (#1) and today was reading your tweets about UU. I was married by a UU Pastor, only because I could not find a Justice of the Peace that was able to come to our “non-church” location. My husband and I do not believe in organized religion and perhaps think there may be something out there, just perhaps. But like others, believe being a kind, gentle, compassionate person is just the way you should live without having an organization tell you to be that way. The fact that we feel most organized actually breed the opposite in their members is a whole separate conversation.
Anyhow, the whole point of why I am posted was to say that the Pastor from UU that I came to know said the easiest way to understand UU was to think of it as a non-judgmental community gathering place. End of story. That you could analyze the crap out of it, but at it’s core that was the basic principle.
Thank you for sharing that, Mel. I may borrow it if I ever try to come up with an elevator speech.
If your page views are astronomical on this post, it’s because I’m fascinated and keep coming back to see the current results. I would have considered myself non-religious, but after your descriptions I conceded a little religious.
I was all ready to answer 1, but the descriptions swayed me to 2.
I voted medium-high, although I attend church every single week and I teach Sunday School and most of my social interactions with adults that actually my friends (as opposed to the parents of my children’s friends) are through my church. I have never once thought that my religion is the “Right One”, in fact, I’m pretty sure the idea that there is more than one way to believe in God is a pretty big part of my mainstream Protestant churches. I could be wrong, but we Lutherans are pretty open minded.
I just have to say though, that I have never ever consider religion to be a specific pro or con when deciding on who to vote for. Maybe bc it was election day in my city yesterday, or maybe I have had the opportunity to vote for members who are openly not my religion, but this qualifier struck me as something I needed to comment on! (I live in a large city, my own religion is Christian, and I am quite proud of my Muslim congressperson and my Jewish senator!)
Also, at the risk of offending some people I suppose, your version of Strongly Religious strikes me as being The Crazies.
Thank you! The CRAZIES! That’s exactly how I felt when I read it more closely, which is why I’m bristling. Which to me, begs the question, is this just the public opinion/popular understanding of what really religious people are like, or are there really people like this out there in the world? Either way: Scary.
I certainly don’t see that last category as being crazy. When someone believes in a deity and a supernatural realm, I think it makes the most sense to measure all the things in this temporary world against the permanent and more important reality—and in fact, many churches and religious schools do that very thing, continually checking in to make sure their earthly reality is remembering the bigger picture. For that category I used what I considered real pure religion: people who genuinely do believe in an actual serious living God who actually seriously exists. Considering the number of our group who are putting themselves in that category, I would ask you to not to call them crazy.
Hi, I feel a little misunderstood here. I wasn’t calling #5’s crazy, because that’s the number I myself picked. My statement above is about the wording of your description for #5- it feels like you’re calling me crazy for being an actively religious person. For example, I feel a little judged by a sentence like: “The supernatural elements described by your religion are just as real (or more real) than the reality of the Earth and the humans and animals and so forth.” Some of this language would be interchangeable with someone who has been diagnosed with a legitimate mental delusion. This feels a little unfair, and awfully limiting to my religious beliefs. I’m not trying to start an argument, but is there a way to describe a very religious person without using extreme or exclusive statements?
I was trying to be as neutral and descriptive as possible, in a way that includes a whole bunch of differing religious beliefs. Reading over the passage you quote, I don’t see anything extreme or exclusive in it. Can you give me an example of how you’d prefer it to be phrased?
That’s very thoughtful of you to ask. Hmm. Truth be told, I’m not sure. I think I’m sensitive especially to the change in language from #1-#4 to #5. The first four focus on a person’s religious status as having to do with participation in a faith community, and #5 focuses a great deal on belief, strong beliefs that control everything you do and all your relationships. As a #5, I find this hard to agree with, since I am super involved but don’t believe that my beliefs would control my every move. How about:
#5: “I am more active in my faith community than any other social group in my life. I try to live my life by the beliefs my religion espouses. I have been to seminary, or would like to go to seminary (or would consider it). I have attended many continuing education conferences or study groups. I have worked for a faith community, either as clergy or a layperson, or I have represented my faith community at denominational/national events. I expect my children to be involved in our faith community while they are growing up, and their faith development is important to me. A lot of my life is seen through the “religious lens,” which helps me see the world differently, including my life choices, friends, politics, and things that happen in the world that I can’t explain.”
I really appreciate the dialogue, Swistle!
I’m an Episcopal priest, so I voted #5, but then I re-read your description of it more closely and realized that I do not fit in that category much at all. As a religious person in a tradition that welcomes doubt, questions, and the wisdom of people with whom you disagree, I’m more in a category that is lower. But in terms of activity in the organization, obviously, I’m a 5. There seems to be a divide in your categories between belief and participation – having one doesn’t necessarily equal the other. I’ve seen a lot of people in my churches that are heavily involved in the community, and yet don’t really believe in God, or people who were not active in church that were extremely faithful and had a very intimate relationship with God. And everything in between.
I do take some offense to the language of judgment of other religions and condemning others with whom you disagree, and the tone here that actively religious people fit into some sort of belief-mold. Not all Christians live in the world of absolutes, even those who claim to love and believe in God. Belief in God is complicated, it’s not yes-I-have-it or no-I-don’t-have-it. Belief is fluid, it changes and transforms over your lifetime. Doubt should be a healthy and active part of your life in faith, not something to be ignored or set aside. At least it certainly is in mine.
This is interesting to me because I definitely feel, personally, that there can be a difference between belief and participation. However, it doesn’t feel like others in “organized” religions feel that way. It is refreshing and interesting to know that you, as a priest, see it that way.
Yes… this. This is exactly why I couldn’t pick between #2 and #5. I’m a #5 for belief but #2 for participation.
Then you should choose #5, since the poll is measuring belief.
Well, to be clear, regarding #5…
I agree with this: There is an actual deity who actually exists, and there is no question about that (though feeling occasional doubt can be considered normal because of our failings as humans and because of attacks on our faith).
But I disagree with this part 100%: “Other religions have it wrong to varying degrees. If someone you love disagrees with your interpretation of a religious issue, it can be a very big deal.”
Let me make sure I understand: If you believe in an actual deity, do you know who it is? And if so, would you say that someone who believed in a different deity, whose existence you didn’t believe in, had it wrong? Or are you saying you believe in A Deity, but you don’t know who it is yet, and so you don’t know who has it right and who has it wrong? If you’re the former, that’s what I’m talking about in #4 and #5: if you fully believe things are a certain way, then people who believe they’re a different way have got to be wrong—it’s not judging or condemning, any more than if I don’t see a chair and you do, and then you successfully sit in the chair so I’m wrong about its non-existence. But if you’re saying you’re an agnostic but with a definite belief in Something, then I wouldn’t put you in #5 but other than that I wouldn’t know without more information.
Answering only for myself, but I agree with idena. I believe in God, and participate actively in my church. However, I cannot believe that God would turn away believers in other religions.
In the simplest terms I can come up with, I believe religion is a human construct. I have a great deal of respect for anyone who holds to a belief system tightly (that doesn’t promote violence or awful things) and does his/her best to live a good life. In my faith, we are told not to judge, and I struggle with that daily, but judgment based on religion fits in there with me.
No, no, not turning away or judging: just thinking the other people have it wrong. That is, if someone is a Christian, they don’t believe in Zeus and Hera: if someone else believed in Zeus and Hera, the Christian might have any belief on the spectrum about what God would do about that (maybe they’d believe God would accept that person because they had the basic gist of things correct even if they had the specifics wrong, for example, or maybe they’d believe that God would send that person to hell, or maybe they’d believe something in between), but they wouldn’t think that Zeus and Hera existed and that a belief in them was right. They’d think that belief was incorrect—that a religion set up to worship Zeus and Hera had things wrong. Not “wrong, go to Hell” wrong—just, you know, “not true” wrong. As in, if you believe something is true, then you’d believe that contradictory explanations of the same situation were untrue.
Ok, this is my first comment, but as a firm liberal Christian, here’s my take:
I believe in God. My limited human understanding of God is the God of Christianity–the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I recognize that while I am limited, God is limitless, and while I can only see a tiny piece of God, God is actually infinite. For that reason, I have no problem saying that everyone who believes in a God (or Gods, or Goddesses, etc.) that teaches people to love more fully is worshiping an aspect of the same God I worship. None of us is “more right” than another; God is too vast for any of us to see in full.
This comment, from Emily, explains my beliefs so well: I believe in God. My limited human understanding of God is the God of Christianity–the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I recognize that while I am limited, God is limitless, and while I can only see a tiny piece of God, God is actually infinite. For that reason, I have no problem saying that everyone who believes in a God (or Gods, or Goddesses, etc.) that teaches people to love more fully is worshiping an aspect of the same God I worship. None of us is “more right” than another; God is too vast for any of us to see in full.
****
Here’s my story, not that you asked, but here goes: I don’t belong to a church any longer (grew up a serious Catholic), and when asked only say that I’m a Christian. I haven’t found any organized religion that I agree with enough to commit to. I find that as I age, I realize I know less and less, rather than more and more. That’s true in matters of the world and in religion. I believe I can be a good person with a connection to a higher power (whatever you’d like to call that power) without the help of any specific religious group. Everyone else can believe what they want — I try hard not to judge others for their beliefs, or lack thereof. I feel my faith journey is a solo act and understand that’s true for everyone, really.
This is such a thought provoking post, and I enjoy coming back to it to read all the comments. Thanks Swistle!
Sara said: “There seems to be a divide in your categories between belief and participation”
And that’s what I was thinking too when I read the choices. In my religion, I believe some of the generalities, but I know much of it is just nice stories. My children are learning those stories too. We belong to a parish but are not hugely participatory. We do attend mass much more frequently than just C+E though. My kids attend a parochial school, and will receive Sacraments. But I do not wear my religion on my sleeve. I do not praise any god when life goes well or blame any god when it doesn’t. Sometimes I might ask “why?” knowing the answer isn’t always evident.
I believe in karma. I don’t judge others, because I do believe in some supernatural power…
I detest the assumption that families with lots of kids are Catholic. Do you get that a lot, Swistle?
So far I haven’t gotten the Catholic assumption per se, but people do seem to assume “religious of some sort.” In my area it’s just so uncommon for people to have more than two kids: if someone is expecting a third, people say, “Wow!” So with five, people think there MUST be SOME explanation other than “likes having kids” or “likes a bigger family”—and religion seems like it must be the most common explanation that comes to mind (mine too, I admit!).
I am really surprised by these results! Really, really surprised because I am a #1 and I feel very much in the minority IRL.
This is a fascinating question, and I’m getting a severe case of the warm fuzzies that there are nearly 60 replies so far and not a single judgement amongst them :)
This is so fascinating, and I keep coming back over and over to read the comments from people. I grew up in a 4-5 family, and believed that way myself, and as I’ve gotten older have slowly been moving down the list. I’d say right now I’m somewhere between a 1 & 2, much to the chagrin of my still uber-religious family.
As to people’s feelings of being in the majority or minority–I do think quite a lot of it has to do with location. I grew up in the Bible belt, and whoooo boy would I be in the minority in my old community. But my current community, I think someone who was very religious would be/feel in the minority.
This is a great idea, Swistle, and I hope you and others will follow up with results and with narratives. After divorcing my minister-husband, I spent a couple of years sorting out God vs religion vs. spirituality, probably one of the most difficult things I had ever done in my life. You know, this could very well be a book.
I thought this was so easy, and then I remembered it isn’t. I answered 1 right away, only skimming the other answers. I haven’t “believed” since shortly after I stopped believing in Santa, maybe the 6th grade, and #1 fits *me* perfectly. HOWEVER, having since read the comments and other choices more carefully, I realized I am teaching my kids (3 & 6) about religion as if I was at least a 3 or 4! despite not believing a lick of it. We don’t go to Church, except for “events”, but we had them both baptized, and have considered Catholic education for them (both myself & my husband went for HS & College), we will surely have them make their 1st Communions, and we always explain religious holidays from the viewpoint of “our” religion, Jesus’ Birthday etc. I try to phrase answers to questions like “Who is God” and “What happens when we die” with “some people believe….” but they are getting increasingly curious about that stuff. My son has a book of Bible stories for kids (a gift) that he LOVES, and I guess I am just strangely hoping that they too will draw their own conclusions when they are old enough.
Fascinating – I put myself in “medium-low” but it’s really complicated – I was raised evangelical, came out as gay in my 20s, and am now fairly heavily involved in a liberal church community despite not being sure what the hell I believe.
What I like about my church community is that everyone knows I might not believe any of it, and it doesn’t bother them. Also: we have a really odd mix of people – gay Republicans and young couples with (and without) children and a rather large homeless community and some single young women and some older couples (60+) and fervent environmental activists and the list just goes on. In the rest of my life, people stay pretty segregated by age, gender, or sexual orientation, so to have everyone smooshed together by dint of a communal narrative (even one that strains credulity) is rather delightful.
I think the reason that liberal religion doesn’t always fit your categories well is that deep commitment to a religious community may not correlate with insistence that one’s worldview is the only correct one. For instance, I don’t have children yet, but if/when I do (and I’d like to), it will not break my heart if they decide not to be Christians. I want them to learn to treat others kindly, and treat themselves kindly, and if they take that away from church and leave the rest, I’ll be happy.
Apologies if someone above has already said much the same thing…. I didn’t have time to read all of these lovely comments.
This: “I think the reason that liberal religion doesn’t always fit your categories well is that deep commitment to a religious community may not correlate with insistence that one’s worldview is the only correct one.”
The ones closest to the true centre of various religions usually have more in common with one another than people at the fringes of different religions. Does that make sense? It is a thought I’ve stolen from Lewis. (example: the Dalai Lama and Mother Theresa -different religions, similar in their love for humankind). The more ‘godly’ people are, the more humble and loving they are and aware that G/god is big and draws people in different ways.
Oops – DID NOT mean to imply that you need to be ‘godly’ or ‘religous’ to be loving and humble. I realize that my comment could be read that way. Sorry.
I meant that people at the true heart of their religion tend to actually be NICER rather than obnoxious fanatics. The obnoxious fanatics are the people on the fringes of the various religions (although they think they are the true ambassadors of course).
Yikes – I’m going to quit before I put my foot in it again.
I put myself as ‘non-religious’ but of COURSE you’re right! I want to clarify my category!
I am not religious, and I don’t believe in anything, and I don’t care to, but I’m not of the STRONGLY not-religious type! Zero beliefs and also zero cares about spirituality or beliefs or whatever! Oh Swistle, this poll inspires CLARIFYING ESSAYS in the comments!
Also. My son is being raised in church with his dad, but not by me, so that is an interesting thing from a parenting perspective. Of course i have my (non) beliefs, and they are part of the way I raise my child, but I don’t want to shut down his whole love-of-church-and-Jesus thing that he does with his dad.
AND ALSO there is an interesting cultural perspective, since he goes to a ‘black’ church with his dad. So I feel like it’s culturally important for him? And I’d be kind of sad if he stopped going. But I in no way at all believe in god or higher powers or the concept of Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior. Conflicted parenting.
It DOES, doesn’t it!
Totally. I feel like I have to write a big explanation about how I consider myself very Catholic, but I read the descriptions and I DEFINITELY don’t fit into the Strongly Religious category and so I picked Medium-High and that still doesn’t seem quite it. I’m mix of all the first 4 categories, apparently.
“I’m Catholic, but I also don’t pretend to know all of the mysteries of the universe” is what I’ve taken to saying.
Wonderful topic, I am so happy to see so many thoughtful responses to what can be a very emotional subject.
As a person who identifies with category #1, I noticed that you did not include how I would feel if I found that my (non) belief was untrue. For instance – when I die, if I find there is ANY KIND of afterlife, I will be really surprised. And if any of the strict “fundamentalist” literal belief religions are correct – I’m in BIG trouble.
I think I would need a lot of corroborating outside evidence if I experienced a manifestation of a deity while I am alive. I have had enough internal “connecting with the universe” experiences (usually involving art or music) to distrust any subjective experiences as representing a universal truth.
Ha ha—that’s true! I think I was just assuming appalled/dismayed/horrified!
As someone who has been reading your blog for less than two years, I realize that I am surprised that your choice of family size was not based on a religious principle. How stupid of me to have fallen into such an architypal assumption. I apologize, and am only confessing this because I am truly ashamed of myself (since obviously you would never have known).
Personally, I think family size should be determined only by the parents, but I am always interested in peoples decisions when they are different from the “typical” (whatever that means in a given time and place).
That’s okay—it’s a completely understandable assumption, and possibly even culturally accurate! If I see a woman with long hair put up, and glasses, not much make-up, wholesome/friendly-looking, and a whole bunch of kids….well, there I go, making the same guess! I’ve been thinking of getting a visible tattoo and an eyebrow piercing to make things a little clearer.
Swistle, I’ve had the exact same thought! Only I was thinking of breaking into things with an unnatural hair-colour (less permanent than a piercing or tattoo, same overall results achieved). Not that I have enough offspring to form my own bowling team yet (I can dream), but my entire life people have assumed even after getting to know me that I was incredibly wholesome and devoutly religious. I have no idea where they get the religious part, as I honestly never bring up my beliefs to anyone. My only guess is that when someone is quieter, avoids makeup and styling products as well as swearing in everyday conversation, they give off a very Mennonite-like vibe that costs them party invitations. Luckily I’m introverted and couldn’t take it too personally since I’d rather be doing my own thing most nights anyway.
I voted 2, but ONLY because I am still coming to terms with and getting comfortable with my lack of concrete beliefs. I grew up with religion and transitioning has been very difficult for me. I know I don’t buy any of it really, but I struggle with that inherent guilt. As other posters have mentioned, I would be very interested in a post about that transition in your life. It would be crazy tough to write without offending people, but you did such a good job with the polling aspect that I think if anyone could pull it off, you could! What I’m most interested in knowing is whether the transition from a religious upbringing to realizing it was Santa Claus all over again was painful/difficult/long-term, or whether you were able to accept it quickly and move on. Sorry to be long winded, I just took a lot from this post and was actually really encouraged to see how civil a conversation this spurred, and how many people seem to be in the same skeptical boat as I am.
love this! what kind of tattoo would get your message across?!
How about a giant neck tattoo of, like, knives and flames? I think that’d do it.
Wow, this is a lot of votes! (And I am winning. Whee!)
Would you consider asking respondents to name the religion they belong to (if they felt they did)? I just think it would be fascinating – for all you know, you have a huge following amongst Orthodox Jews, for example. Or a surprisingly high amount of very religious Buddhists. That sort of data would be interesting (or maybe that’s just cos I’m a sociologist….I can’t help but think data like that is always interesting).
This is so fascinating! I love it! I wish I had time to really read all the comments. In normal interaction with people, it just doesn’t seem an appropriate topic and of course you never know when your honest intellectual discussion will strike a nerve and offend someone, especially with the subject of religion.
Other commenters echoed my thoughts. I’m “culturally Christian” in that I celebrate Christmas with my family, but I don’t buy into the “son of God” stuff so much as there was this great leader a couple thousand years ago who taught about kindness and tolerance and social responsibility toward our neighbors. I don’t even know about the existence of God. Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, my life keeps being lived. If you do and it comforts you, I’m glad. If you don’t, that’s okay, too.
Just don’t push it on me. I don’t feel like I need to sit in a church or perform rites to be a good person and teach my children the same. I try to be moral and kind, but do not feel comfortable in an organized religion.
This post, and the resulting comments, are like a hot cup of tea or a good book for me! Enjoyable, and comforting, and thought-provoking, and a little something that reminds me how good life really is :) Being a #1 responder, this is actually something I’ve thought a lot about for the past year or so. I married a Jewish man, and ultimately decided to “convert” to Judaism. Being non-religious myself, I really struggled with feeling like a fraud for joining a religion, when I do not consider myself a “religious” person at all. Not to go on-and-on about my personal story, but in a nutshell I decided to do it for our future children. In order to be accepted as “fully Jewish” in some circumstances, a child must have a Jewish mother. I didn’t want to take that option away from my future children, or inadvertently be the cause of them feeling alienated from their paternal family. It was interesting to me that in the Reform Jewish arena (of which we are a part), “religiousness” is almost described as being optional (at least in my experience, thus far). There is certainly encouragement to explore the “religious” aspects of being Jewish, but there is also acceptance and understanding if you just….don’t Believe. It’s kind of nice, therefore, in my experience, to be able to enjoy the positive aspects of being part of that special kind of community that results from being part of a “religion”, without feeling pressure to have a certain mindset or set of beliefs. However, like I said above, I do sometimes still struggle with this….but probably (if I’m being honest!) not as much as I struggle with finding a dang disposable that will not leak, OMG WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO ACCOMPLISH???
Thank you for this post. I don’t think the topic is the main reason why I love it so much. Just how you wrote it, the fact that it OCCURRED to you to write it in the first place, and how you have followed up in comments have all reaffirmed that you are my favorite blogger ever :)
Annie – I had to comment on this simply because I have a (sort of ) similar story and wanted to say “me too!” when I read your comment. I love hearing people’s stories of their beliefs and their spiritual journey’s. I selected #3 (medium low) because that is how I live, but would definitely be a #2 if I didn’t have kids.
My spiritual journey is this: I was raised Catholic and very involved through high-school, became un-involved and disenchanted in college. married a non-religious man who was raised christian but his grandparents were non-practicing jews. We originally planned to raise our kids some form of non-denominational christianity since that fit our beliefs from a cultural perspective, but after we were married my husband had a major spiritual epipheny and rediscovered his jewish roots and beliefs and we are now raising our kids jewish.
My view is very much like many who have commented above in that I believe in a higher power and I think as humans we are limited and no one has it 100% right. I wanted my kids to have a “spiritual home” and my husbands passion for judeism trumped my ambivalence toward christianity. This decision has come with many challenges given that neither of us was raised jewish, but I have found as I learn more and more about judeism it actually is very in-line with my personal beliefs . It’s the cultural aspect that has been the hardest – learning how to celebrate all new holidays with no other family to learn from and being terrified to host other jewish families for fear we are doing it wrong! After 7 years I’m finally starting to feel more comfortable, but boy it has certainly been a journey.
Sorry to hijack the comments with my story, but I do love reading what everyone has to say. Swistle, as always, you are awesome. Great topic.
I chose “not religious” because I am not religious, but I do attend church most weeks when I’m not running for office. I go to the Unitarian Universalist congregation near me. I love the community, I love the minister, and I love that they don’t care even a little bit that I am not religious.
My favorite part of this post is that you left out crazy people.
Unabashedly, good-naturedly #5, with the exception of the second to last sentence. Unfortunately, I have some family members who are so concerned with certain issues, the loving message of grace is crowded out and it has alienated others in the family.
To answer Misty, I am Lutheran, and I teach in our church’s preschool. We have children from all denominations and often several families who do not belong to/attend a church. I, too, appreciate how respectful everyone’s answers have been here.
And Swistle, I don’t have children myself, but this website makes me bust my guts with laughter on a regular basis. Thank you for being such a great, funny writer. :)
This is SO interesting to me. I was raised in a #5 Roman Catholic family (my youngest sister is a Franciscan nun, for example, and incidentally probably the least judgmental person I know), very quickly became a 1 as a teen, and moved to a 3 (in behaviour) when I married a Methodist. I was surprised to find he was religious; also, we are both mathematicians, and people default to thinking that math and science people are more logical and therefore less religious. (There was actually a meta-study some years ago that found liberal arts academics to be more likely, as a group, to be atheists or agnostics, and scientists and mathematicians to be more likely to be religious. I wish I knew the reference off-hand!) Long story short (too late), my husband and I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy (Christian, not Jewish – I feel the need to qualify because people make that inference often), and boy were a lot of my perceptions and doubts about religion challenged with that one! Eastern Christianity is so completely different than the common perception of Christianity in the Western world. (An Orthodox Christian who truly understands their faith would never say a non-Orthodox is doomed; in fact a common saying is that “we can’t know who will be revealed to be Orthodox in the next life”.) As a mathematician, I take issue with the idea that religious people are somehow less “rational” than atheists. I am quite sympathetic to why someone would be an atheist, but atheism being “more rational” has nothing to do with it (because it isn’t). Incidentally, I voted 4 even though I leant strongly toward 5… mostly because I think faith and politics should be completely separate, so, for example, I would not want the government to make a law that would prohibit any denomination from marrying gays, or that would prohibit any denomination from refusing to do so. I could go on, but apparently, I did that already!
Anyway, fascinating discussion. I too would be curious to hear an answer to the “what religion?” question. And I am absolutely encouraged at the civility and respect on all sides. It confirms my (very Orthodox!) belief that people tend to goodness. Thank you for this.
OK – this is fascinating, but I don’t have time to read all the comments. I want to come back to them. :) Can I jump the gun and ask a question anyway? How would you feel if one of your children chose to become very religious? Would it matter what religion?
Thanks for a very interesting topic, which (as far as I’ve read) is being discussed thoughtfully and without hostility. (difficult with this subject)