Baby Boy Mouslie-with-an-H, Brother to M@ry Gr@ce (Gr@ce)

21 Replies

So hopeful to get your thoughts on our naming roundabout! I love reading your posts so much and know that you would provide some much needed insight for us.

We are expecting a little boy in the spring! We are so excited to welcome him, but fear he will leave the hospital nameless and be known as “baby boy Mouslie” (with an H) forever. We have one little girl named M@ry Gr@ce, but we primarily call her Gr@ce. M@ry is an honor name, and we love both the combo and the nickname and just everything about it. Boys names are proving to be so much harder! Which is confusing for me since I am a self-proclaimed naming guru since childhood. I guess it is different with your own child?? Either that or I’ve lost my touch. Or, it is the fact that I actually have to agree with another person on a name instead of coming up with one on my own. That does make a decision a bit more difficult!

My husband has two and only two names that he loves: Sawyer and Sh3pherd. I quite like Sh3pherd too actually but I’m not brave enough to use it as a first name. We are religious but it feels like it could be almost sacrilegious to me if that makes sense?? I think I might be thinking too much about it. We love the nickname “Sh3p” as well. Here are a few names I love that he doesn’t: Jude, Curren, Ansel, Graham, James, Abel, Samuel. We both say we like softer sounding names. I think we should be going with something more classical to match our daughter’s name. Hmm… soft and classic, sounds easy, but we are just so picky! We’ve come down to two final contenders (for this week anyway…ha). The0dore Sh3pherd and Augu$t Ev3rett. We both like them enough to use either of them I think. Augu$t has always been top of our lists, but just not sure we like it as much as we used to anymore. Don’t like any nicknames for it- but not sure we can force it to be the name he is called by forever. Same with The0dore- I love the full name so much and would call baby boy by that exclusively, but he only likes this combo if he’s called Teddy or Sh3p. Neither of us are very fond of Th3o. I would be ok with using the full name and primarily calling him Sh3p, but I feel like we already did the middle name nickname thing with one kid and it would be confusing to do it again. Or would it??

We would love love love advice! We are also not closed to suggestions though I’m pretty sure we have combed through every name in the universe by now. But I am all about seeing something in a new light if there’s something that hits you like a bolt that you think would work here!

Thank you thank you thank you and I promise to update once a decision has been made.

 

Oh, I FULLY agree: the secondary problem is applying the name hobby to an actual child, and the PRIMARY problem FOR SURE is having to cooperate on the name with another entire human—sometimes a human who has not put in ANYWHERE NEAR the years of time and effort. Well, and also: having to work with the particular surname. All of these things factor in. It’s  a wonder any of us manage to choose a name at all, but PARTICULARLY those of us who CARE about names! My mother-in-law, whose baby-naming technique was to use for each baby the first name that came to her mind, plus a middle name that made a pleasant mild bridge between first and last, was probably overall a happier and more content baby-namer than those of us who struggle. (Nevertheless I firmly believe our way is superior.)

I grew up very religious, so I will weigh in on the Sh3pherd issue with my one data point. I would say that on its own, or with a sibling name such as Hadley or Morgan, the name Sh3pherd does not make me think of anything religious: it feels like a surname/occupational name, and I too love the nickname Sh3p. But: as soon as the name is combined with the name of any other cast member from a Nativity play, I’m afraid the association is rather strong for me. M@ry and Sh3pherd doesn’t sound so much sacrilegious as imbalanced: why is one child a lead, and the other generic supporting cast? Even combined with Gr@ce, Sh3pherd gives me the feeling of a THEME, though perhaps only when I’m primed by thinking of M@ry and Sh3pherd first. I do think it’s fine as a middle name.

While I am dishing out opinions, I will say that I think once you’ve done one “kid going primarily by middle name,” it’s easier to do a second one: you’ve already gone through the training process with your entire extended circle, and now they are familiar with the concept. But “kid going by nickname of middle name” feels a little harder to sell: at that point, I start to wonder if the name shouldn’t be sent back for more workshopping.

You don’t have another classic/traditional honor name you’d like to use, similar to M@ry? A dear Thomas or Peter or Stephen in the family tree? And then perhaps with a classic-yet-contemporary one-syllable-and/or-low-nickname-possibility middle name, which you’d call him? I’m wondering if leaning into a more fully parallel name would help here.

Andrew George Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and Andrew George; Gr@ce and George
James Louis Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and James Louis; Gr@ce and Louis
John Nolan Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and John Nolan; Gr@ce and Nolan
Paul Emmett Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and Paul Emmett; Gr@ce and Emmett
Simon Henry Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and Simon Henry; Gr@ce and Henry
Stephen Miles Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and Stephen Miles; Gr@ce and Miles
Thomas Elliot Mouslie-with-an-H; M@ry Gr@ce and Thomas Elliot; Gr@ce and Elliot

Or of course I would suggest any of those middles as firsts instead, if you don’t have (or decide not to use) another honor first-name. I’m going to go ahead and put them in their own list:

Elliot
Emmett
George
Henry
Louis
Miles
Nolan

Paul in particular stands out to me. Soft but solid/strong, classic, warm. Paul Mouslie-with-an-H; Gr@ce and Paul. Paul Sh3pherd, Paul Ev3rett.

I agree that it can be risky to use names if you dislike the nicknames. It’s definitely easier to go by the full name than it used to be, but it’s impossible to know what the child themselves will prefer. I don’t know if it helps, but we’ve had a number of commenters mention that they were very opposed to a nickname until their child started going by that nickname, at which point they did a complete 180 on the issue and can hardly remember what they didn’t like about the nickname. On the other hand, I had a co-worker Liz whose parents had wanted her to be Elizabeth/Beth and truly disliked the nickname Liz, and it had been ten years since the nickname change and Liz said her parents still weren’t happy about it. So I suppose it depends on the particular parents/child/nickname, and I suppose most of the time it’s not knowable in advance.

I think an Augu$t might end up going by Gus, and so it would be good to contemplate ahead of time how you feel about Gr@ce and Gus; it’s a lot of one-syllable G- and S-sounds.

I like Ev3rett as a first name here. It goes nicely with M@ry, M@ry Gr@ce, and Gr@ce.

Baby Girl V.

16 Replies

Hello Swistle! I’ve read your blog for a long time and am so excited to finally be able to write. We’re expecting a baby girl in spring, our first, and all the possibilities have me feeling somewhat deer-in-the-headlights. Our last name starts with a V and is Greek. My taste runs towards simple, classic girl names, generally on the shorter side.

I adore the name Lucy, called Lulu, but my 4-year-old niece is frequently called Lulu, among other nicknames. The actual name is very different (think, like, Niloufar nn Lulu) but we live close to my SIL and plan for the cousins to spend a lot of time together. Would it be cute to have two Lulus? Or would it be confusing, or will SIL feel like I’m stealing an aspect of her name?

Here are the other names on our shortlist:
Molly (feels a teensy bit more nickname than name, but husband doesn’t like Mary and other long forms seem too contrived.)
Iris (initials would be IV so we could call her Ivy. Or are IV initials a problem? I don’t feel like there’s much potential for teasing there: ha ha, you’re named after a…universal medical device…? Wow, your parents must really like the number four?)
Frances (nn Frankie/Cissy)
Adela (husband’s frontrunner. I like it but am not jazzed by any of the nicknames.)
Virginia (nn Ginny)

Names I like but can’t use:

Vera (sounds a bit like Mila Miller with the surname. I actually sort of like the combo, but wouldn’t want to do it to a child)
Anne/Annie (husband thinks it’s too plain)
Esme (pronounced es-may. I love it but don’t like the Twilight connection, and can’t quite bring myself to hand her a lifetime of correcting spelling/pronunciation)
Faye (husband thinks it’s too short)
Charlotte (adore the nickname Lottie, and it’s a total “I liked them before they were famous!” situation, but now that the name is so popular it’s a definite turn-off)
Blythe (husband thinks it sounds too religious, despite that…not really being a thing? I guess he associates it with virtue names like Faith and Mercy)

If we had a boy, his name would probably be Benjamin (Benji) or Miles.

For the middle name, we were thinking either his mother’s name (Eirini) or my mother’s name (Colleen). Since the Greek tradition is to name babies after their grandparents, I like the little tie-in to his heritage. But I also love the name May and think it would make a cute middle if she ends up being born in May (due date is right on the borderline). Or Bellamy? It was my great-grandmother’s maiden name, and I will shamelessly admit to having zero attachment to this great-grandmother (or even, you know, ever having seen a photo of her) but loving the name. Iris Bellamy. Lucy Bellamy. I’m also tempted to go fully self-indulgent and give her something totally out there like Odyssey or Snow, since middle names come up so infrequently anyway.

I’ve thought about names for so long, but now that I’m faced with naming an actual baby, nothing seems to just click! I’d love some suggestions and input from you and your readers.

Thanks so much,
Sam

 

It is hard to know how your sister-in-law would feel about you duplicating the nickname. Some people have an attitude of “The more the merrier!” when it comes to their children’s names, and others use words such as “copying” and “stealing.” If your sister-in-law is married to one of your siblings, I would start by consulting with that sibling; if instead she is your husband’s sister, I would start by consulting with him, and perhaps asking him to consult with her. Well, but with this caveat: if you ask, then I think you should go with what the sister-in-law says. That is, one possible route is to NOT consult with her, and to go ahead and use Lucy/Lulu, and chance the consequences; but if you go the route of asking her ahead of time, and she says it would bother her, then I think using the name anyway would cause a huge issue.

Another option, if you plan to have more children, is to save the name Lucy/Lulu for a future child: a bigger age gap can make it a lesser issue. Also, it gives you another, less-pressurey way to ask: you can say, after the first baby is born and named, “One of the names we were considering was Lucy/Lulu,” and see how the sister-in-law reacts. Relief? Disappointment? Give her some time to get used to the idea, and then perhaps bring it up again and see what she says.

I think at this point Molly is a stand-alone non-nickname given name: we have done posts here where we have discovered that even among name enthusiasts, a large number of people are unaware of the Mary/Molly/Polly connection—or they are aware of it, but they don’t expect to encounter it anymore. I am in that latter group: I know Molly and Polly were once nicknames for Mary, but if I encounter a Molly or a Polly, I assume it’s the given name and not a nickname for Mary. Because it appeals to you to do something alliterative such as Vera V., but you don’t necessarily want to assume a child would find it as appealing, I wonder if you would like to alliterate the first and middle? Something like Molly May V., or Molly Bellamy V.

You have seen me mention this many times before, and now it is your turn to have it mentioned to you: I suggest thinking ahead to future sibling-name combinations. Molly and Lulu would be a lot of L sounds. Cissy and Lucy would be a lot of C/S/Y sounds. Iris and Frances both end in -s; would that be okay, or would you want to choose only one or the other? Would using Ginny rule out a later Benji? Adela is quite a different style than Lucy and Molly and Ginny, though I think it goes nicely with Iris. Which seems more like your kids: Adela and Iris, or Lucy and Molly? I see a fair number of nickname options in your list; would it bother you to have some kids with names/nicknames and some with only names, or is that a non-issue? How do you feel about repeated initials? Would using Molly rule out using Miles later?

From context I am making the assumption that the children will be receiving their father’s family surname. If that is the case, and if you decide to also follow the Greek tradition of using grandparent names (in this case, as middles), I strongly urge you to use YOUR parents’ names, to help balance the name a little. Father’s surname + father’s cultural naming traditions + father’s parents’ names is severely weighted toward the father’s side. If you DID decide to use husband’s surname + husband’s cultural naming traditions + husband’s parents’ names, I would expect nothing less than for you to get 100% full say on the first name, up to and including choosing a name your husband was meh about—and even then, it would not be anything like a fair division.

Another option would be to use various family surnames from your side as middle names: Bellamy, yes, and your own family surname if that would work nicely, and any other family surnames you like. FILL the birth certificates of all your children with representatives from your family tree! Make it so the one repeated family surname from your husband’s side feels SKIMPY!

Okay, let’s look at first names! I like Molly, especially if you are thinking Lucy and Ginny and Frankie. That’s a spirited bunch. I would add Polly as another to consider. If the name I see in your email address is your own family name, I lovvvvvvvve the idea of it as the middle name with Polly. Absolutely smashing. But it would also work nicely as a middle for a future Miles or Benjamin.

I also like Amalia with the nickname Molly, and wonder if Amalia would be similar to Adela for your husband. Though I think for me, having to keep explaining that it’s Amalia not Amelia would be more than I would want to take on.

I think I.V. initials are fine; it does seem difficult to find an inroad for teasing. I am in fact drawn to the idea of naming her Ivy and her initials would be I.V.; that has a charming little flair to it. I think I would enjoy the fun of that, if it were my name; it gives me a fizzy happy feeling. The name Iris is already so similar to Ivy (long-I, two syllables, blatantly botanical) that it feels confusing to use the nickname Ivy with it.

Frances/Frankie is adorable, I think, and I like that she has good nickname options depending on what sort of person she feels herself to be: she can go with Frannie, Frankie, Frank, Cissy, or she could even punch it up and go by Francesca.

I have loved the name Ginny ever since reading a book in elementary school with a protagonist named Ginny. I wonder if the given name Virginia would still lead to teasing at this point in the timeline. DO people still go tee-hee over the word virgin, or are we past that? And then there is that silly catchy Billy Joel song that still plays pretty regularly on the radio. I wonder if you would like Genevieve or Geneva or Imogen.

Adela stops me in part because I am unsure of the pronunciation/emphasis. Is it like the singer Adele, but with an -ah added to the end, like ah-DELL-ah? I suppose it must be: it’s not likely to be, say, ADDLE-ah or addle-LAH. Okay, I can picture it now: sort of the rhythm of Isabella, but without the Is-, and with a D instead of the B. Yes, that’s nice. I think my main concern is the absolute mountain of Addies currently on the market. This is going to vary regionally, of course, so it may not pertain to your area, but in our school system we have so many Addies and Maddies that they can’t even use surname initials (too many repeats) and are instead known as, for example, Art Maddie, Green Addie, Maddie-who-dates-Ellie, Maddie-who-dates-Aidan, Theater Addie, my-friend-Melissa’s-Maddie, etc. Would it work to use the nickname Della, or is that too large a percentage of the original name?

This makes me think of Delia and Dahlia as possible options. I encountered a Delia in the wild and it made a very pleasing impression. Her mom at one point called her “Deels,” which isn’t the kind of nickname you’d write on a homework paper, but sounded very cute when said aloud.

If you enjoy some alliteration but Vera is too much of it with the surname, I wonder if you would like other V names. Violet/Lettie (similar to the Lottie you liked with Charlotte), Vivian/Vivi. Verity probably isn’t going to fly if your husband doesn’t like virtue names; I love Victoria and Veronica but I’m not keen on the nicknames.

If you like Anne/Annie but they’re too plain for your husband, there are SO MANY delightful longer forms that can then be nicknamed Anne/Annie. Annabel, of course—that’s one of my own top favorites; for awhile it looked as if it were going to gets super common, but then it backed off. I wonder if Annabel would be a nice combination of Adela and Anne/Annie? Or Annika. Annalise/Anneliese. Gianna. Liana. Lillian/Lilianne/Lilyanna. Hey: what about Lilianne, nicknames Lili and Annie? Lili is similar to Lulu but doesn’t step on toes.

I wonder if you would like other names with the -oo- sound of Lucy/Lulu. Julia/Jules. Juliet/Jules. Ruth/Ruthie/Rudy. At some point, Gertrude/Trudy is going to come back; is it getting to be time? Same with Judith, maybe with the nickname Jude instead of Judy this time around. Susanna/Annie. June/Junie. Juniper/Junie. Ruby, but no nicknames come to mind; maybe it would work to combine it with the middle name to make a nickname, like Ruby Bell.

While looking for more like Lucy/Lulu, I found Mabel. It feels like it combines May and Adela, and has some of the feel of Lulu.

I do sometimes wish I’d gone more Odyssey/Snow for my kids’ middle names. I didn’t have the nerve at the time. When I reconsider it now, I still prefer the names we chose, so I guess what I slightly regret is that I didn’t prefer the more whimsical/fun options. When my kids were younger, we were friends with a family whose kids had middle names that were very similar to Sparkle, Galaxy, and Flower, and I spent some time wishing I’d had more FUN with our kids’ names.

Baby Names that Got Away

68 Replies

Every so often, I like to revisit the topic of baby names that got away. In the time since we last talked about it, some of us will have moved from the baby-naming stage of life to the stage after that; some of us will have changed our lists; some of us will have had a fresh experience of trying to name a baby and finding we couldn’t use a name we wanted to use.

I find I don’t PINE the way I used to. I remember folding laundry and actually weeping because I’d missed the chance to name a baby Anastasia. That sort of thing doesn’t happen anymore. Now it’s more as if I am rooting for my favorites to succeed elsewhere: someone PLEASE name a baby Millicent! Winifred! George! Frederick! Alfred!

I do have secret hopes that some of my favorites will be used for grandchildren—and I hasten to say that I will not be PUSHING or even SUGGESTING the names, I just mean it would be fun if it happened to work out that way. But I know from long observed experience that in general the grandparents DO NOT see their favorites used on the grandchildren, and in fact grandchild-names tend to offer the grandparents an opportunity to practice mindful acceptance: the generation gap is difficult for names to transcend. My parents winced a little (though with awareness and acceptance) at the name Henry, a name that to them was not only elderly but nerdy, everyone’s scrawny great-uncle Henry with the liver spots and ear hair. I remember my mother-in-law suggesting names such as Dawn and Cherish: absolutely appropriate for the time when she herself was having babies, but no longer the right thing for the next generation.

Well. What are the names you are currently weeping into the laundry about / rooting for others to use?

Baby Boy Molina Maplepines

26 Replies

Hello Swistle!

I am sure you hear this all the time, but as someone obsessed with names for years I never thought I would be in the position of not being able to figure out a name! But here we, most very definitely, are.

My husband and I are expecting our first baby, a boy, in early April. Getting pregnant was difficult, and we hope to have another baby or two but definitely no guarantee. We are a bilingual Spanish/English family, and baby will have two last names. Both last names start with M, and sound something like Molina Maplepines (except the second last name is actually Portuguese and looks more like a name like Guimaraes, but Maplepines has the same sound and flow). I know you normally don’t weigh in on non-English names, but we live in the Midwest US and baby will spend so much of his time in an English environment that that is my greatest concern. Plus all the names we are considering are familiar to exclusive English-speakers.

If the baby had been a girl we only had Alma and Liana on our list, two favorites of mine that my husband seemed to be okay with as well.

Our preferences: my husband prefers biblical, old fashioned Spanish names. I like somewhat more international, more timely (or trendy), short names (given the really long last names). I would also prefer to avoid M names, alliteration is cute, but alliteration x3 is a lot (I think? Or no?).

My husband’s list (short version, also suggested names like Roberto and Ezequiel):
Mateo
Abram
Tomas
Diego

My list:
Felix
Gael
Tiago

Possible compromise names:
Emilio
Elias

Essentially neither of us seems willing to go with the other’s names. I find Abram and Tomas too old fashioned, Mateo too popular plus the M issue (and a newborn cousin named Matias), Diego is okay. My husband doesn’t like Felix because of Felix the Cat, Tiago because it sounds like “te hago” in Spanish, and Gael he just doesn’t love (and does make the fair point that it has some of the greatest potential to be mispronounced).

Emilio feels long to me, and we actually both probably like Emiliano more, but 5 syllables is just so much (the last names are each 3 syllables). We also have Amelias on both sides of our family, and I worry that Emilio is too close. We could possibly call him Milo or Lio if it ends up being confusing, but we both prefer names without nicknames.

As for Elias my husband strongly prefers the Spanish pronunciation (eh-LEE-as vs ee-LIE-as), I am okay with either/both. Elias was the name of my husband’s grandfather, which in some ways is sweet (my husband was close to him before he passed away unfortunately very young) but also we are not considering ANY family names otherwise for any other boy in the future or a girl. I don’t love using one family name from my husband’s side and never using another family name, but there are none I want to use either.

Help! Please! Either with opinions on the name options we have, or other suggestions, or sage wisdom on choosing a name in general. My mother-in-law, who generally is a sweet and helpful person, constantly asks if we have chosen a name and the pressure is rising (just today she said we “need” to have picked a name by our baby shower, to which I said I made no promises!)

Thank you!!

 

For STARTERS, we (and by “we” I mean “your husband”) are going to lovingly inform your sweet and helpful mother-in-law that the name will not be chosen in time for the baby shower. Maybe it WILL be chosen by then! But let’s all assume it won’t be, and/or that you would prefer to time the baby-name announcement differently. Maybe you were not even planning to share the name until after the baby was born, which would be a pretty normal plan! Maybe you don’t feel like locking down the name for SURE-sure until it is time to fill out the birth certificate, which is ALSO a pretty normal plan!

No doubt she is thinking of people who want to personalize gifts with the baby’s name, and that is delightful, but those people will need to make other plans, as they would need to do for MANY baby showers at which the name has not yet been chosen/announced and/or the sex of the baby is not known/announced. They can give you a wrapped letter at the shower, telling you what they will be giving you after the baby is born/named; they can give you an unpersonalized version of something and add the personalization later; they can give you something different at the shower and give you the personalized item as a baby gift after the baby is born; they can scrap their entire plan for a personalized gift and do something else; etc. They have options that do not involve you rushing to commit to a name before you need to / are ready to.

Now that we have made ourselves a little breathing room, let’s look at the options. I was about to stand here and tell you that the name Mateo wasn’t particularly popular, and then I checked the Social Security Administration and I see it was #11 in 2022. I did the same thing awhile back with the name Luna: “What? It’s not THAT popular. …Oh.” This is why it is a good idea to use a good shake of salt when hearing baby-name opinions from grandparents-to-be: they tend to be OUT OF THE LOOP, baby-name-wise.

Because you’d like to have more children, I’ll mention my usual caution about making sure the name you choose this time doesn’t rule out other names on your list. Would Abram or Emilio rule out Alma for you? Would Elias rule out Liana for you? That sort of thing.

I was all set to champion Elias until I saw that your husband wants to pronounce it eh-LEE-as. This feels like an endless uphill struggle. The mispronunciations may be relentless. I am imagining if I wanted Robert’s name pronounced ro-BEAR, or Henry’s name pronounced on-REE, and immediately I feel exhausted. Plus, I agree with your reasoning about family names, particularly about family-name inequality.

I do think your husband should try to get over Felix the cat. That’s a reference that’s barely relevant to my generation (I’m vaguely culturally aware of the cartoon from 60-100 years ago depending on incarnation, but I’ve never seen it), let alone to current parents and children. And the name Felix is increasingly in use, which will increasingly dilute the association. Old people may remark on it, the way they will remark on any name they haven’t yet realized is current (“Mateo? Now THAT’S an unusual name!”), and they can be ignored until they’ve had a chance to adjust.

Though here I am one paragraph later, uncertain about Diego because of the TV shows Dora the Explorer and Go, Diego, Go. To be fair, those shows were recent enough to have been watched at the time of broadcast by children who are still children today, and the DVDs are still regularly checked out at the library where I work.

I would encourage you to toss out “length” as a preference, if possible. One of my children has a name that is so long it gave me serious doubt (twelve syllables), and it is absolutely a non-issue. No one even says neutral things such as “Wow, that’s a lot of name!” Nothing. Not a peep. No one cares. And even if they HAD said “Wow, that’s a lot of name!,” it would have been the smallest of small deals. “Yes,” I would have said, smiling, and likely the conversation would have ended right there. The other person would not have gone home to their family that night saying “Let me tell you about the LONG NAME I encountered today!” (And if they had–because I actually DO report interesting name encounters to my family–THAT TOO would be the smallest of small deals.) Choose the name you love and REJOICE in its glorious longness! …Though if you prefer to avoid nicknames, that does seem like a reason to avoid a five-syllable name.

I have two names from the lists I’d like to champion:

  1. Felix. Shortish, and easy to spell and pronounce. Felix Molina Maplepines. Felix and Liana; Felix and Alma.

  2. Tomas. I think that you would get the occasional person trying to pronounce it like Thomas, but that it would be more typical for people to get it right: the spelling is a huge clue/reminder. There is a Stefan in my children’s school, and people might try STEFF-fun and stef-FAHN, but they don’t generally try STEVE-ven. Tomas Molina Maplepines. Tomas and Liana; Tomas and Alma.

 

 

 

Name update:

Thank you, all, for all your contributions and suggestions! I read your response, Swistle, and every comment many times. So many great suggestions, many of which would have been contenders if they weren’t taken by close family or friends (Luca! Andres! Rafael! Oscar!).

In the end Eli@s Abr@m joined us on April 8th, although technically he wasn’t named until the next day. The turning point with the name Eli@s was my husband realizing that while he was more familiar with the Spanish pronunciation he didn’t actually mind the English pronunciation, and was fine with using either. We also discussed how his own name is pronounced differently in English and Spanish, and how he has always used the standard pronunciation in each language and never minded. Diego and Emilio/Emiliano did remain options until the last minute, and while I do think Eli@s could have been an Emilio I am content with our choice. So far we normally use the Spanish pronunciation even when we are speaking English at home, but out and about (at the doctor’s office and places like that) we use the English pronunciation. We will see how things develop, but I am sure they will work out.

Thank you all so much!

Baby Boy or Girl Peanuts-Character-Who-Plays-the-Piano, Sibling to Savannah and Hadley

26 Replies

Dear Swistle,

We are currently pregnant with our third child, due in spring. We’re waiting to be surprised with the sex of the baby.

Your readers helped us out tremendously about 3 years ago naming our first baby. You introduced me to the concept of sibling sets—trying to name your kids with their whole sibling set in mind and aiming (hoping!) for them to all flow well together. Now that our third (and likely final) baby is coming, we need some naming help once again!

We have a very short list of names that we are intrigued by for each gender, which I’ll share below. But what we really want are some fresh name ideas that flow with our sibling set. We’re simply bored with all the lists floating out there and feeling generally uninspired.

This baby will be joining older sisters Savannah and Hadley. Our last name is the Peanuts character who plays the piano.

Boy names we like:
– Wells
– Theodore (Too popular?)
– End of list. Help.

Girl names we like:
– Penelope (nickname Nell/Nellie)
– Eloise/Louise (my husband isn’t the biggest fan of these but trying to give you a sense of where my head is at!)
– June

One sibling set I saw mentioned (here, maybe?) a while ago that lit me up: Edward (Teddy), Eloise (Ellie), Philippa (Pippa), and Harriet (Hattie). I mean, get out of town! So good!

Hoping you and your readers can help us customize a fresh new list to complete this sibling set!

 

The similarity of Theodore to your surname is catching my attention more than the popularity. Both start with an -h consonant blend; both have the E and O and R in the middle; both end in -der/-dore. It feels like too much to me. But this is the sort of thing where, when I am concentrating on it too much, I find it useful to leaf through a yearbook: so many names I would have thought were too much if they appeared as candidates on this blog, and they didn’t register that way with me when they were used on actual people! I heard those names at graduation and didn’t say boo to a goose!

Theodore is Top Ten, as of 2021, according to the Social Security Administration. Somewhere I have a post I wrote defending/encouraging the use of Top Ten names, and I stand by that; but I do think it is best to go in KNOWING it is a Top Ten name. I think Theodore sounds great with Savannah and Hadley.

I like your description of hearing a sibling set that lit you up, and I wondered what would come to mind if I imagined encountering a sibling set of Savannah, Hadley, and ______. What would give me that zing? For me, the name June would do it: Savannah, Hadley, and June.

I wondered, if you like the repeating sounds of names such as Theodore, if you might also like Claudia. I like the way it shuffles some sounds from both sibling names plus the surname, but also has some sounds all its own. Savannah, Hadley, and Claudia. I find I want to say the names together again and again, relishing the way Savannah and Claudia both have three syllables and end in -ah/-a, but Hadley and Claudia share the L and D and long-E sounds.

Similarly: Cassidy. I just went and looked it up to see what its popularity path has been like (I felt as if I had last heard about it a couple of decades ago, and yet for some reason it wasn’t striking me as dated), and it looks like it had a little surge after Kathie Lee Gifford named her daughter Cassidy, but then the usage drifted gradually back down. It’s in that pleasing familiar-but-uncommon range. Savannah, Hadley, and Cassidy.

Belinda? I heard this recently and found it utterly charming, and fun to say, which is also how I feel about the name Penelope. Savannah, Hadley, and Belinda.

Delia, or Dahlia. Savannah, Hadley, and Delia. Savannah, Hadley, and Dahlia.

Long-time readers are just WAITING for me to see Eloise/Louise on your list (I love both of those names) and mention the name that comes to my mind like a reflex: Eliza. Savannah, Hadley, and Eliza.

Or Estelle. Savannah, Hadley, and Estelle.

Bianca. Savannah, Hadley, and Bianca.

Would you want to launch out into something like Clementine? I considered that name fabulous except for a lack of nickname options, until someone mentioned they use the nickname Minnie. Savannah, Hadley, and Clementine; Savannah, Hadley, and Minnie.

I see I have launched from Theodore into girl names and only girl names. Let’s fix that.

Elliot. This is a name of my heart, but Paul and I could not agree on a spelling (I’d be okay with adding a second T, but Paul wanted Eliot). I mention it particularly because of Ellie and Harriet in the sibling group you liked. Also, I like it with your surname. Savannah, Hadley, and Elliot.

Frederick. Brings in some repeating sounds, like Theodore does. Savannah, Hadley, and Frederick.

Gideon. I know you never said anything about wanting repeating sounds and here I go with one name after another, but I seem to have gotten on a tear. Savannah, Hadley, and Gideon.

Franklin. Savannah, Hadley, and Franklin.

Edmund. Savannah, Hadley, and Edmund.

Edward/Teddy, from the Lit List. Savannah, Hadley, and Edward; Savannah, Hadley, and Teddy.

Calvin. Savannah, Hadley, and Calvin.

Malcolm. Savannah, Hadley, and Malcolm.

Emmett. Savannah, Hadley, and Emmett.

Miles. Savannah, Hadley, and Miles.

This is where I clicked the link at the top and went back and looked at your first letter from a few years ago. I see that back then you were thinking of Macklin or Macallister, nickname Mac, but felt it worked better for a second or third child. IS THIS PERHAPS THE MOMENT?? Savannah, Hadley, and Mac.

Similar possibilities: Declan, Cormac, Isaac, Caleb, Malcolm, Kieran, Lachlan, Merritt.

Sixteen-year-old Henry was around, and chatty, so I asked his opinion. He suggests Elijah. Savannah, Hadley, and Elijah. He is also very in favor of Wells. And he mentions Weston, which he likes with the surname, and he likes the nickname options Wes and West. He says he would like to see Stephen/Steven being used again for babies, but I was not sure it works in this sibling set: repeats a first initial AND the V sound of Savannah, and also feels like a different style. He likes Lane with the surname, for either a boy or a girl.

Baby Girl or Boy Garrett-with-a-B

15 Replies

Dear Swistle,

I have been a huge fan for years, and I’m super excited to reach out to you! My husband and I are expecting our first baby in mid-January, gender unknown. Our surname is Garrett-with-a-B, my name is Chelsea-with-a-K, and my husband is called L3wis. We’d like to avoid names beginning with K & L, and names ending in -ee and -s sounds. For a girl, we have a long list of names we like and can see ourselves using: Beatrix, Annabelle, Juliet and Adelaide top the list to name but a few. We like the idea of two middle names as well. However, if we have a boy, we are in trouble! First middle name will 100% be Peter, so that eliminates first names ending in most -r/-a sounds, as the pairings lack flow. The second middle name is not decided yet. I like Wilfred (my favourite of all time! – husband hates it!), Robin, Ernest, Quentin & Ralph. My husband likes Arthur, Julian, Axel, and names with a Roman origin – think Augustus & Aurelian. We can’t use Alfred, Rupert, George, William or Leonard. Our crossover list consists of Felix, Hector & Frank, but none of these feel like the one; my husband isn’t sure if we can carry off some of these names. I would describe our style as classic, vintage, Shakespearan – we aren’t drawn to modern names, nicknames as first names or surnames as first names. I like the idea of a name that is easy to spell, and is familiar, but neither very popular or very rare. Nothing feels perfect; and I’m finding it difficult to create a cohesive sibling set with our girl names, overall I think our boy name style is a bit more conservative than our girl choices. We would like to have at least one, if not two more children in the future. Hopefully you can help us!

 

I wonder if you would like Frederick for a boy. Maybe something like Frederick Peter ______ Garrett-with-a-B.

Hang on. Is Garrett-with-a-B your husband’s surname? Would your surname work as a second middle? Although, I will say that that’s what Paul and I did, and I have been increasingly unhappy over the years with the feeling that I accepted a small handful of dry crumbs. Husband gets his family’s surname for all the children, even though he is not particular close with his family, but I “get to” have my own family name as the SECOND middle name, in the throw-away, often-doesn’t-fit-on-forms position. Cool. I hear it once per school graduation, while his surname is in the open air simply constantly.

Well, what if instead you get to use one of the names your husband hates in the middle-name position? Frederick Peter Wilfred might not work because of the repeated -fred-, but let’s say we were dealing with Felix: Felix Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B.

I’d also like to ask about the origin of Peter. Is that a name from you / your side of the family / your preferences, or is it from your husband / your husband’s side of the family / your husband’s preferences? If it’s another name from your husband’s side, we need to look very seriously at creating balance with the first name and the second middle name. If it’s from your side, it’s a good start. And if, instead, Garrett-with-a-B is YOUR family surname and Peter is from your side/preferences, then we need to make the same effort to include names from your husband and his preferences: maybe his family surname as the second middle, maybe a name from his list that you dislike as the second middle, etc.

I think Franklin/Frank is a pretty great name, and I think a kid could carry it. That’s the one that stands out to me from your shared list. Franklin Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B.

I wouldn’t worry too much about finding a style match between your boy-name choices and girl-name choices: it’s so common for parents to have different styles there; and also, your lists seem compatible to me. I would keep an eye out for names that eliminate other names (for example, using Julian for a boy could rule out using Juliet for a future girl; maybe you wouldn’t want to have a Felix and a Beatrix; etc.), and I would look out for CLASHES—but, for example, a sibling group of Beatrix, Franklin, and Juliet works perfectly well, as does a sibling group of Annabelle, Felix, and Adelaide, so I think you’re starting from a good position.

Your preferences about not repeating either the beginning sounds OR the ending sounds of your own names makes me wonder how you feel about duplicating initials/endings within the sibling group. If you are strongly opposed, it is a good idea to think ahead of time about which name from each group you like best: Juliet or Julian? Annabelle or Adelaide or Arthur or Axel? Beatrix or Felix? It may seem like an obvious thing to consider, but it’s not something I myself thought through sufficiently: I realized that if I chose Robert it would rule out Russell, but I neglected to consider it would also rule out Rose and Ruth and Albert.

I wonder if you would like the name Conrad. I’ve been noticing it cropping up here and there. Conrad Peter Quentin Garrett-with-a-B.

Or Desmond. Desmond Garrett-with-a-B. Desmond Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B.

Or Crispin. It has the merry sound of Robin. Crispin Peter Earnest Garrett-with-a-B. (I’m deliberately using a different spelling of Earnest here, just for playing around.)

Aidric. I’m not sure if it’s too many snappy sounds with the surname. Aidric Garrett-with-a-B. Aidric Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B.

Edmund. Edmund Garrett-with-a-B. Edmund Peter Quentin Garrett-with-a-B.

Hugo. Hugo Garrett-with-a-B. Hugo Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B.

Warren. Warren Garrett-with-a-B. Warren Peter Ernest Garrett-with-a-B.

Victor. Victor Garrett-with-a-B. Victor Peter Quentin Garrett-with-a-B. I know you mentioned avoiding names ending in R, but I’m not sure the flow with middle names will be that much of an issue. Do you come from a family that uses them often? That is, do you have reason to think people will frequently call your child “Victor Peter”? Or will the middle names show up in the birth announcements and then not again until high school graduation?

Marcus. Marcus Garrett-with-a-B. Marcus Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B. I know we’re avoiding -s endings, but I’m slightly ignoring that preference, especially in favor of one of the few ancient-Roman names I think works beautifully today.

I’m a little surprised your husband isn’t on board with Quentin. That seems almost more like it should be on his list rather than yours. Let me just put in a word for it to see if he’ll reconsider it, because I think it hits a lot of the preferences. Quentin Garrett-with-a-B. Quentin Peter Wilfred Garrett-with-a-B. Quentin, Beatrix, and Juliet. Quentin, Annabelle, and Felix. Quentin, Adelaide, and Beatrix.

 

 

 

Name update:

Hi Swistle,

Hope you are well, I have a name update for you!
We ended up having a little boy, which was a shock as I was certain I was having a girl.
It took us a while to settle on the name, as we were still unsure. My husband decided to look up the feast days of the saints who are celebrated on the day our son was born. (I’d like to add we aren’t particularly religious – we were just looking for inspiration). Lo and behold, January 14th was St Felix’s day – and this was one of the few names we could agree on. This was the sign/coincidence we needed to confirm that our son was a Felix!

Here is Felix Peter Alfred:

P.S. I’m still holding out hope for Wilfred if we have another son in the future!

Baby Girl Beach: Finding Balance in a Name

24 Replies

Dear Swistle,

I love your column and your commitment to balance between parents in naming! My partner and I feel similarly, and that’s an area where we could really use your help.

We are due with our first and almost certainly only child, a girl, in March. We were trying to conceive for a while and have developed a relatively stable shortlist, though now that this is actually happening, we’re wondering if we should open it up to new possibilities and conversely, how we will ever narrow it down. Any ideas for names to add or cut would be appreciated!

We are using my partner’s surname, which is Beach (but spelled like the tree). We decided to go with it for a variety of reasons, and I have 51% say in the first name as part of the deal. We’d also like to use a middle name from my family to help balance things out. But that’s where it gets tricky – there are “dynamics” in my family that mean many potential choices could result in hurt feelings/drama/guilt. The fact that this will be our only child increases the pressure. My last name doesn’t work well as a middle, and I never liked my middle name much. Any ideas on ways to balance the name without using a family name? Is that even possible?

One other note on honour names – a couple of names on our shortlist are family names, and if we use one of those, we’ll probably give our daughter a middle name that is hers alone.

On to the shortlist:

Mary: a family name on both sides (non-contentious). We love that it’s so recognizable but not very common, at least for babies. Only concern is that it might be too plain? We get a lot of underwhelmed reactions.

Alice: my maternal grandmother – another non-contentious honour name. So versatile. By far the most common (#11 nationwide, #44 in our province) which is the main drawback. Also, I think the name is very nice and checks a lot of boxes, but it doesn’t grab me the way some of the others do.

Bernice: this was my favourite, and my partner wasn’t that keen, and I more or less talked myself out of it. But now suddenly it’s become my partner’s top choice and I’m not sure if I can get back on board! I love the nickname options (Bernie, Bebe). I can’t decide if it’s great or too much with the last name. And is it unpopular for a reason? Too clunky?

Sylvia: the forest is meaningful to us, and it’s a pretty name. My partner has cooled on it, feeling it might be too much in grandma (rather than great-grandma) territory.

Linnea: lovely name, and meaningful to us for the botanical connection. Concerns: might be mispronounced, is just a little outside our usual name style, and might be too pretty?

Cecily: We like that it’s light but also serious-sounding. Concerns: a little hard to say, and the meaning “blind” is not super appealing.

Agnes: one of my partner’s favourites. I like it, but I dislike the nickname Aggie, and I don’t love “chaste” as a meaning.

Considered but rejected: Dorothy, Veronica, Helena, Cora, Estelle.

Boy names we liked: Laurence nn Laurie, Alistair, Ansel, James, Norbert, Jasper.

We are in Canada, which I hope is close enough to the US in naming climate that you will feel able to help. The only significant difference I can see, for our purposes, is the higher popularity of the name Alice here. Oh, and also that Bernie probably has a milder Sanders connotation in Canada!

Thank you so much for considering this (long) letter! We promise to write with an update if chosen.

R0semarie (R0sie) and Patr1ck

 

Well, let’s see, you’ve already considered some of my favorite ideas for bringing more balance to a name: using your own surname, using your own middle name, using family names from your side of the family. And you have already agreed that you will have more say in the first name; 1% more of the say seems…slim, considering the 100% sacrifice of your surname and 100% use of his, but I am just going to take 51% to mean it’s up to you, and that you will actually use that edge instead of choosing the name the two of you would have agreed on anyway even without the deal, and that way we’re all happy.

I will mention some ideas that you have likely already considered, but maybe you haven’t! And even if you have, perhaps they will be useful to someone else who is going through the same situation. One idea is to use your own first name. Men do this absolutely constantly; women, much less often. And your first name gives a lot of options to fit with a variety of first names, depending on to what extent each option feels like Your Name: R0se, R0sie, R0semarie, maybe variations such as R0salie and R0semary. My favorite would be to use R0semarie, but not if that doesn’t feel like Your Name—like, if that’s your Only When I’m in Trouble name. In that case I’d be more inclined to use R0sie. But I’ll note that men named James who have always gone by Jim or Jamie still tend to name their sons James, not Jim or Jamie.

Another idea is to use names that are meaningful to you in other ways than family names. Did you love Anne of Green Gables as a child (Anne, Cordelia, Marilla)? Little Women (Josephine, Margaret, Elizabeth, Amy)? Five Children and It (Anthea, Jane)? All of a Kind Family (Ella, Henrietta, Sarah, Charlotte, Gertrude)? The Five Little Peppers (Mary/Polly, Sophronia/Phronsie)? Are there books and movies you consider your all-time favorites? Do you have favorite scientists, politicians, actors, authors, poets?

Let’s look now at the first names. The three that align most with my OWN tastes (which is not the question here) are Sylvia, Linnea, and Cecily. I went to school with a Linnea (the lynn-NAY-ah pronunciation), and found her name endlessly pleasing to say; it was on my own baby-name list for each pregnancy. I don’t think Sylvia is too grandma; I think it’s well ready to come back into style—and considering how similar it is to the very popular Olivia, I’m surprised it isn’t more common already. I think it has a lovely sound: light/silvery but grounded/solid. I agree with your assessment of Cecily, and I don’t find the meaning to be an issue.

In fact, let’s do a little side-paragraph on the meaning of Cecily. I’m looking in The Oxford Dictionary of First Names, which says nothing about that meaning under Cecily. But under Cecil, it says that Cecil is a surname name, and that the Cecils were Welsh; it then adds: “In the Middle Ages Cecil was occasionally used as an English form of Latin Caecilius (an old Roman family name derived from the byname Caecus ‘blind’).” Are you following this? I had to re-read it like a dozen times, and I had to look up the word byname, which apparently means nickname and/or early surname (like from when surnames were used to distinguish between two people with the same name, like Isaac the Baker and Isaac the Bearded). But what I’m getting here is that the name Cecil is a Welsh surname that does not mean blind or have anything to do with blindness. But “in the Middle Ages,” people “occasionally” said they were using Cecil or Cecilia as a form of the Latin name Caecilius. And that Caecilius is a surname that came from some ancestor being called Isaac the blind, and the word for blind was caecus. This feels like a lot of big leaps to get to the idea that the name Cecily means blind. Nevertheless, Saint Cecilia in the Catholic tradition is considered the saint of the blind, so that perhaps locks it in for many. [Edited to add: This tidbit about Saint Cecilia is apparently not true. This is where I got the (mis)information: https://stmatthewmonroe.org/st-cecilia.]

Well. I wonder if you would like Celeste?

I’m not going to go on a similar journey for Agnes, because it’s a name your partner is more in favor of than you are, and I am glad to see those names but am not considering them strong contenders. I will say that other books list the meaning of Agnes as more like pure/holy/lamb (agnus is Latin for lamb).

I think the name Mary is similar to the name John, in that it seems so very ordinary and plain on paper, but springs to life with freshness on an actual child. There was one single Mary in school with my kids, and when I first heard her name I thought “MARY!!” with amazement, hearing it as if for the first time as a name rather than as almost a name stand-in. It feels saturated because of its many previous generations of popularity—but in this current generation of babies, it is rare and surprising. It is much higher in the Social Security Administration‘s rankings than I’d expect (#136 in 2022), and I have wondered if that is regional (i.e., in some areas of the U.S., there is a Mary per household), or if it is due to a large number of children being given the name but then going by a different name. I would be interested to hear other people’s experiences with the name in their region.

I am intrigued by the name Bernice. It has been off my radar. I remember a Bernice on the TV show Designing Women. (That used to be one of my favorite shows. I wonder if it holds up to modern re-watching?) Other than that, I’m not sure I’ve encountered any. I think Bernie or Birdy would be adorable nicknames. Bernice makes me think of the names Beatrice and Beatrix and Bernadette.

Alice, Bernice, and Agnes all merge a bit with the surname, creating a “speech” sound. This is not any sort of deal-breaker, but it’s the kind of thing I like to think about ahead of time.

Because you like Alice and Cecily, and because you like name meanings, I suggest the name Felicity. It means happy/lucky.

Because you like Laurence for a boy, I wonder if you would like Florence?

And because it came to mind while I was writing the post, I suggest the name Harriet. I feel it shares vibes with Agnes and Alice and Bernice and Sylvia.

If it were up to me, this is the list I’d be working with:

Celeste R0semarie Beach
Felicity R0semarie Beach
Florence R0semarie Beach
Harriet R0semarie Beach
Linnea R0semarie Beach
Sylvia R0semarie Beach

And the one that is currently my own frontrunner is Sylvia R0semarie Beach. It’s a first name that is on your shared shortlist and has meaning to both of you but you like it a little more than your partner does, which feels like it puts your 1% to good use; and it uses your own first name as the middle name, which gives her a uncontestable family honor name that goes a fair way to balance the weight of your partner’s family surname.

 

 

 

Name update:

Dear Swistle,

Thanks so much to you and your readers for the thoughts and suggestions! It gave us a lot to consider. A funny thing happened as we were testing out the names on our shortlist (we used each for a week): Alice wore so well! It went from unexciting to the top of my list. Once baby arrived on March 21, it still felt right. With my maternal grandmother’s name as first the name was satisfyingly balanced, and we chose a middle we liked for its style and meaning. Alice Esme Beach is now 3 weeks old and a true delight! Thanks again for your help.

R0sie and Patr1ck

Triplet Baby Girls Hayes, Sisters to Madrigal and Clementine

51 Replies

Hi Swistle! My wife, Shannon, and I just discovered your blog looking around for baby names and we’re really hoping you can help us. My name is Lauren, our last name is Hayes, and we have two older daughters, Madrigal Kathryn (often goes by Mads) and Clementine Vivian (often goes by Clem). Their middle names are our moms names. Neither of us have other family names we feel strongly about using, but a few we are kicking around honoring various family/friends are

Margaret
Paloma
Noelle
Cassidy
Julia
Rory
Hannah
Louise

But those are just middle names we are considering! The big problem is first names. And oh yeah, we need THREE first names- I am pregnant with triplet girls, due in eight weeks (yikes!) basically the only decision we’ve made is that we want all their names to start with a vowel- this seems like the level of matchiness we want. (And different letters, we def want each kid to have their own letter). As for style….well, looking at Madrigal and Clementine, I’m not totally sure how to pin it down…..eclectic, quirky, vaguely nature-ish? Here is what we have come up with so far:

Everly
Ariadne
Ottilie
Acacia
Arwen
Elowen
Azalea
Elysande
Ione
Indigo
Idabel

Can you (and your commenters!) maybe pick this bunch of disparate info into three coherent names that somehow fit together with each other and with Mads and Clem? We would love other name suggestions too!

Thank you so so so much!

 

Three different vowels is perhaps a bigger challenge than you want when dealing with the already enormous challenge of naming triplets. I wonder if you’d consider, at least to begin with, ditching ALL preferences for matchiness, and waiting to see if matchiness occurs naturally? That is, perhaps if you look at names starting with any letter, you’ll find that your three favorites all have six letters, or all have a double letter, or all have a long-O sound. That is where I would begin, if I were you: eliminate all unnecessary restrictions, and give yourselves a much longer and more flexible list to work with.

I will also suggest a technique I found useful when naming twins: I pretended they were arriving individually. That is, I imagined Baby A, and pretended that she was my third baby and a singleton; then I imagined Baby B born two or three years later, another singleton; what would I name them THEN?

Well. Working from the lists you’ve provided, and working within your current preferences because that does make a fun game, I will make a triplet set, and we will see what triplet sets the commenters make!

Ottilie, Elowen, and Ione

Ottilie Margaret Hayes
Elowen Louise Hayes
Ione Noelle Hayes

Madrigal, Clementine, Ottilie, Elowen, and Ione