Baby Girl, Sister to Carys and Elise

Jen writes:

We’re expecting our third baby girl in October and we’re having a terribly hard time finding a name we LOVE. Our first daughter’s name is Carys Anne. I fell in love with the name Carys many years ago because it’s unique without being too far out there, and the meaning is “love.” Anne is a family name (my middle name, my mom’s middle name and my great grandmother’s first name). Our second daughter’s name is Elise. Again, pretty, but not super popular. Elise’s middle name is Margaret after my husband’s grandmother.
Growing up as a “Jennifer” in the 80s was really crappy (for me). There were 5 Jennifer’s in my kindergarten class and we all were referred to by first name last initial. I hated being a Jenny F. and I wanted to avoid that at all costs for my kids by not picking super popular names.
We thought we were all set with the name Hadley for our baby, with Haddie as a nickname, but now I’m having second thoughts. I like it because it’s really pretty, unique, but not super out there. Plus, my grandmother’s name was Hattie and we thought there was a nice family tie. However, my original goal was to find a name that had an “s” sound at the end, so that it was similar to Carys and Elise, and now I’m bummed that I haven’t been able to find anything. My husband and I really like Emerson, but our big reasons for not “loving” it are that we wanted to avoid another name that started with C or E, and technically it’s a boys’ name. I’m more hung up on the fact that it starts with E though. My husband’s name also starts with an E, so that’s just a lot of E names!
We tend to like the English/Welsh/French type names like Olivia, Harper, Avery, etc. Those names are all on our list, but for various reasons are not “the” name, but are in the style of names we like.

Maybe you can help us by suggesting something we haven’t already thought of?? I would be SO appreciative!

Proof that we are living in a superior time is that when I Googled “baby girl names ending with s” I immediately got a good list on Nameberry. With Carys and Elise I particularly like Iris.

But I think if it were me, I might try to break the S-ending theme, especially if you think you might have more children later on. Two children with something similar about their names (same starting letter, for example) puts on a little pressure to continue it; three makes the pressure almost irresistible—and notice that the list of S-names isn’t all that long. And although Iris is my favorite, the repeated -ris sound is probably too much with Carys.

What I might do instead is look for a name with a strong S sound in the middle instead of at the end, to make the names sound right together without backing you into a corner. It’s hard to come up with suggestions without a surname to try them out with, but names like Marissa and Josephine and Lissandra and Isis and Cecily and Lucia (the loo-SEE-ah pronunciation) and Elspeth and Millicent and Astrid and Celeste.

Or maybe a starting S. Something like Sadie or Stella or Sabrina or Selena or Silvie or Simone.

Out of left field, I suggest Rose. It came to my mind when I was thinking “Carys, Elise, and ___?”

Another name that came to mind was Merrin. Carys, Elise, and Merrin.

Or Audrey: Carys, Elise, and Audrey.

Because your first two daughters have family names as middle names, the middle name might be a great place for your grandmother’s name. Was Hattie short for another name, such as Harriet or Henrietta? That would increase our options, though the name is still a little tricky to work with.

If you’re trying to avoid classroom duplication, things are better now than they were back when we were growing up: the absolute most common girl name in the United States is only about a quarter as popular as Jennifer was at its peak. The thing to avoid now may be names that sound similar to a bunch of other names: Kylie, for example, in a classroom with a Kyle, a Kaylie, a Kyla, a Kayla, a Mikayla. Hadley may only be moderately popular (though rising fast: from #921 in 2000 to #178 in 2011), but in a classroom with a Madison, an Addison, a Madelyn, an Adelyn, and a Hailey, she may feel more like a member of a Jennifer pack even if she doesn’t have to use her surname initial—and a Haddie may feel like she belongs to a group of a million girls going by Maddy and Addy.

Baby Boy David$on, Brother to Miles Ru$$ell

Melissa writes:

Hello Swistle.  Thanks for taking the time to read this!  We are a two-mom family expecting our second child, another boy, in October.  I carried our first son, whom we named Miles Ru$$ell MySurname David$on, and my wife is carrying our second son. He will also have four names, First Middle MySurname David$on.  We had a long, complex process for naming our first child, involving a huge poster on the wall, pulling different combinations out of a hat, and ultimately making a list of six finalist first names and naming him a day after he was born.  We both love the name Miles.  Other things to know: Ru$$ell is an honor name from my wife’s side of the family.  Also, we have abandoned nearly all of the alternate names we considered for Miles — Quinn, Owen, Preston, and Langston.

What we’re looking for now feels impossible: a boy name we like as much as Miles that sounds good with Miles and that satisfies her more traditional taste and my slightly more unusual taste.  I’m a name maniac, but my initial list of about 30 names was quickly pared down when my wife found most of my suggestions way too wildly unfamiliar.  To give you a sense of her style, I will say that she strongly objected to Haskell, which I liked, and Dashiell, which I presented as a variaton on my father’s name, which is Darryl.

I would like to use a name from my side of the family somewhere in there, although we are not making that a requirement.  We also prefer that it not be another M name (my name also starts with an M), but we are not firm on that. Finally we have pretty much ruled out any name ending in “son,” to avoid repetition with the last name David$on.

Qualities we like a name to evoke are kindness and intelligence.  For me, creativity would be a plus, but I don’t necessarily need an artist name.  We’re less into names that come across as macho, if that helps, but we also are not looking for an androgynous name.

If we’d had a girl, top names would have been Delia Claire and Hazel Magdalena.

Here’s what’s left of our list.  Family names from  my side include Charles, Glenn, George, and Sever.  I strongly prefer to use Glenn somewhere because it honors both my dad and grandfather, but my wife is so-so on it.  She likes Sever (rhymes with Weaver) but thinks that everyone would pronounce it SEH-ver and that he’d have to constantly correct people.  She suggests adding an A to make it Seaver, but to me that seems like an entirely different sort of name.  Sever is a Norweigan first name from my great-great grandfather, and I just can’t handle how the letter A changes the feel of the name for me.  I would consider Seever, but maybe that is too weird?  We are on the verge of abandoning Sever altogether.

Edgar and James are family names from my wife’s side that we both like.  If we used one, though, I’d want to use it with one of my family names for balance, especially because we have chosen to use her surname for the kids.

Here are the other names we both somewhat like.  You can see they are all over the place because we have such different styles.  Otis, Luke, Clark, Vaughn, Leo, Sawyer, Amos, Graham, Grant, Hugh, and Silas.  Leo and Luke are the ones she is most comfortable with, but I think she is warming up to Otis too.

We are considering using the name Falkner as a first or middle.  It is a reference to a place that is meaningful to us, and it was almost Miles’s middle name until we decided to use an honor name in its place.

We have been calling the baby Chet in utero (long story).  We could use Chet as a nickname for Charles.  I think it sounds good with Miles: Miles and Chet.  This brings up the issue of a possible musician theme.  When people see the name Miles David$on, they assume our son was named after Miles Davis.  He was not, but we don’t mind the association because it is a pleasant one to us.  However, if we name our second child Chet or Otis, will the musical theme seem intentional?  And would that matter?  It doesn’t really bother me, but should it?<

Oh, and my surname starts with an O, for the purposes of inital cross-checking for weird words.  Like, Otis Glenn would have the initials OGOD, and would that be okay? Hee hee.

Oh, yeah — are Miles and Charles too similar sounding?  We’d probably call a Charles by Chet or Charlie, but still…

We’d love any additional name ideas, as well as feedback on our current ideas.  We’d be grateful for the help!

 

The extensive naming process and 6-name finalist list for your first son can be a comfort when naming your second: the name that now seems perfect didn’t stand out as perfect from the start. The next name you choose may very well follow the same path: not standing out as obviously perfect before it’s chosen, but growing into a name just as perfect as Miles grew to be.

Miles and Charles do sound a little matched-ending to me, but not to the point of ruling out the name—and I love the tie-in to the baby’s in-tum nickname.

I do think people will pronounce Sever like the words sever and seven, but that in the middle name slot it wouldn’t be an issue. I too would be resisting changing the spelling, since it’s a family name. I like something like Elliot Sever OSurname David$on. But it seems like the name of a great-great grandfather is much less of an honor name than the name of your dad and grandfather, so I’d be under-motivated to use it.

I would sell Glenn as a sort of nature name: “a forest glen” has a much prettier spin. Or I might mention Glenn Close. Or I might say, “It’s not my style either, but it’s an important honor name for me.”

The musical theme is only slightly noticeable to me with Miles David$on (I thought “…Hey, that is ringing a bell…”) (I did figure out why after a moment), and a brother named Chet or Otis wouldn’t have raised any connection for me at all. But I’m almost completely unmusical, so I think we need feedback from people who would immediately have wondered if it were intentional. As to whether it should bother you (when it doesn’t naturally), I don’t think so. When the connections aren’t negative, I think it’s mainly a problem when the parents are bothered by other people questioning/assuming the connection (“I don’t want them to think we used Jack and Rose because of Titanic!”)—and if that hasn’t bothered you with Miles David$on, I don’t think it’s an issue.

I did notice Miles and Otis sounding like Milo and Otis—even though I’ve never seen the movie and it’s over twenty years old. I think I noticed it because long long ago when I was considering Milo for the child who turned out to be Henry, a bunch of people mentioned the movie; and, since then, on our many cat-acquiring quests to animal shelters, I’ve noticed a large number of orange cats named Milo. (Not as many as black-and-white cats named Oreo, but close.)

I am trying to hold myself back from OVER-PUSHING you to use George. I love that name and I think it’s the perfect companion name for other revival names like Max and Jack and Sam and Henry and Oliver. It sits right on the line of “completely traditional” and “whimsical/interesting/unusual.” It has long roots and it has George Clooney, and I’m just not sure I can stand the wonderfulness of George Falkner OSurname David$on. Miles and George! I love it.

For kindness and intelligence (while still trying to find something between traditional and unusual), I like:

Edmund
Elliot
Emmett
Everett
Felix
Henry
Ian
Karl
Louis
Malcolm
Oliver
Simon
Wesley

…Okay, so that’s pretty much my own boy name list. But I think “kindness and intelligence and not overly macho” is a very good way to describe what I too look for in a boy name. And since George and Milo/Miles and Charles and Leo have ALL been on my list TOO, the others from the list sprang to my mind.

The one I keep coming back to (other than George) is Elliot. Elliot David$on; Miles and Elliot.

With Hugh and Leo both on the your list, I also suggest Hugo. Hugo Charles OSurname David$on; Miles and Hugo.

 

 

Name update! Melissa writes:

We are happy to announce the arrival of Hugo Carl On$tad David$on on Tuesday, October 23 after 37 hours of labor!  We went to the hospital with a list of first names, and it didn’t take long to determine he looked like a Hugo. We considered the middle name Atticus for its literary and historical connections, but my desire for an honor name was strong and we ultimately chose the middle name Carl after my great-grandfather.  The suggestions and input provided by you and your readers were helpful — when you recommended Hugo, you gave me the courage to add it to the list.  Thanks again for your thoughtful help.

Hugo

Name to Consider: Jemima

E. writes:

I would like your impartial advice on this, as a baby name advice blogger. Most people think “syrup” and I’m aware of the slavery connotations – however my daughter will be Caucasian/Italian. We live in California, and both have college/graduate degrees. Is Jemima a quirky biblical name or still too loaded to use?

Interesting! I’m not sure! For me it definitely has an immediate syrup/slavery association (no biblical association even for this pastor’s daughter—Jemima had such a tiny/brief mention), but that kind of association dims so quickly with increased usage of a name. One year it’s “NOAH?? As in, THE ARK??,” and then suddenly it’s in the Top 10.

So let’s check to see what the Social Security Administration says the usage is doing:

1996 – 27 baby girls named Jemima
1997 – 13
1998 – 14
1999 – 26
2000 – 22
2001 – 24
2002 – 18
2003 – 34
2004 – 32
2005 – 28
2006 – 35
2007 – 43
2008 – 33
2009 – 50
2010 – 32
2011 – 39

Not much, huh? Somewhat of an increase over time, but not exactly leaping up the charts.

Here’s something of possible interest, however: the very similar name Jemma hadn’t been in the Top 1000 since 1879 (that’s how far the online records go back)—but it suddenly appeared in 2010 and 2011 at #854 and #832, respectively. The spelling Gemma has a similar story: nothing from 1879 through 2007—but then it appeared in 2008 at #889, and then for the next three years it LEAPED: #562 in 2009, #449 in 2010, and #356 in 2011.

This suggests to me that the SOUND of the name Jemima may be ready to come into style. The associations may still be too strong—or perhaps Jemima just needs a few more years and will then suddenly leap after Gemma.

What does everyone else think? Is Jemima usable now? Usable soon? Not usable in the foreseeable future? Let’s have a poll over to the right, but put the reasons for the responses in the comments section. [Poll closed; see results below.]

Poll results for “The name Jemima:” (411 votes total):

I think it’s usable now! – 132 votes (32%)
I think it’ll be usable soon! – 58 votes (14%)
I don’t think it’ll be usable for a long time – 123 votes (30%)
I don’t think it’ll ever be usable – 80 votes (19%)
I can’t decide – 18 votes (4%)

Baby Girl or Boy Polanco: Finding the Perfect Name; Is Emerson a Boy Name?

Bonnie writes:

As I searched the internet today, in tears, mind you, (probably thanks to all of these insane pregnancy hormones my doctor keeps talking about), I came across your blog. I felt a wave of relief reading questions from parents-to-be about the dilemmas of naming their children. I always thought I’d pick the perfect name for my child, girl or boy, but now that I am 21 weeks pregnant and have been thinking about names since my husband and I started talking about children.. I’m not sure there IS a perfect name for us. I have always had trouble making decisions, however, this may be one of the hardest. I feel as though I am back in the dress boutique in Manhattan almost three years ago where I was standing in a white dress, in tears, not because I had found the perfect wedding dress, but because NONE of the dresses brought me that “ohmygoodness, this is the one!” feeling, as they are “supposed to”. After countless hours of dress shopping I could not make a decision and my mother and bridesmaids were more frustrated than me. The worst part of this anecdote is that, although I did find a dress that I loved, I still, to this day, question if I should have waited, looked around more, spent more time….
Will that happen to me with our child’s name? 
My husband and I are not going to find out the sex of the baby so, even better, I need to find TWO perfect names. I’m focusing on girl’s names right now only because I can’t handle thinking of both! If we have a boy we are considering the name Hudson Gray but it’s very up in the air… in case that helps. Our last name is Polanco.
I love the name Emersyn or Emerson for a girl and we almost had settled on Emersyn Grace until someone in my family mentioned that it is horrible and too masculine and my daughter would always resent me for giving her a “boy’s name”. I have a very short name and no middle name which I have always hated so I want my child to have something longer that comes with a variety of adorable nicknames. 
I love Grace as a first name and read many of your posts about possible middle names for it. One of your readers ended up naming her baby Grace McKinley, which I absolutely love. I think calling the baby “Gracie – something” using her middle name would be too cute. However, I am Jewish and by tradition we name according to the first letter of a relation who passed away. I have an E and a B. The E is really the one I wanted to use though, as my grandmother’s name was Elayne and we were very close. Unfortunately, I was never fond of the name Elayne, otherwise that would have been one problem solved. I love names like Adeline, Adelaide, and Hannah. I am also partial to Averie although my husband is not. In our families we also have the names Emmaline and Isadore (my great-grandfather). I love Isadora but I am afraid that children will be mean and call her “Dora the Explorer”. I also have a niece named Isabella, is Isadora too close to her name?
Perhaps I am too all over the place to even ask for help at this point. I’ve spent so much time online and read so many baby name books.. I’m worried the baby will be born and there will be no name to be had. 
If you can help, it would be most appreciated!
Thank you!

Let’s start with whether or not Emerson/Emersyn is “a boy name.” Short answer: no.

Long answer: while the suffix “-son” does indicate “son of” in some languages (as do the prefixes Mc- and Mac- and B-), it doesn’t do so in United States English: we instead use the suffix “Junior” to indicate a son named for his father. The name Alison/Allison is not “a boy name,” and neither is the name Madison, even though the ending of the names happen to include an S, an O, and an N, in that order. And now that the -en/-an/-on/-in ending is so popular, many new names have a -son ending— not because they mean “son of,” but because an -en/-an/-on was added to another segment that happened to end in an S, such as Case + -on = Cason.

Other names did come from another language’s father-to-son naming system, but that origin is as relevant as knowing that a name means “oak tree”: interesting, but doesn’t mean the name can’t be used for a child who isn’t a boy named for his father (can the name Jackson only be used for sons of men named Jack, or can others use it as well?), or for a child who isn’t an oak tree.

Even if we wanted to claim that in United States English the ending -son still meant male/”son of,” and even if we were going to try to say that that extended to endings such as -sen and -syn and -synn, we’d need to work with the reality of actual usage. In 2011, according to the Social Security Administration, the name Emerson was given to 730 male babies and 1142 female babies. The name Emersyn was given to 6 male babies and 390 female babies. The name Emmerson was given to 21 male babies and 106 female babies. The name Emersen was given to 57 female babies. The name Emmersyn was given to 51 female babies. The name Emmersen was given to 12 female babies. The name Emersynn was given to 10 female babies.

It becomes increasingly difficult to call a name “a boy name” when it is given to more female babies than male babies. Clearly names are not black and white in that way, and insisting that they SHOULD BE or ARE that way doesn’t change anything. We could also claim that Ashley and Evelyn and Lesley are “BOY names!!”—but where would that get us, now that they are used mostly for girls? Names, like colors and toys, are given to male/female babies according to fashion, not according to stone tablets.

There. That’s the end of the long answer.

You could consider Emerson (with that spelling) as your boy name: it IS still used for boys as well as for girls. Or you could consider Ellison, or Edison, or Emmett, or Elliot, or Everett.

There may indeed not be a perfect name for your baby. The concept of a perfect name existing out there somewhere, FATED specifically for a particular baby but ONLY IF YOU CAN FIND IT, as if the universe itself has selected a name that you must now frantically quest for before time runs out, is a damaging and stressful and upsetting concept for most parents—especially when you’re trying to find it for someone you’ve never even met. Would it have changed the course of your marriage to have found The Perfect Dress? Would you now be happier, more in love, more compatible with your husband? Will finding The Perfect Name change the course of your parenting experience, or change your mother-child relationship?

I find it’s happier and more relaxing to think of the goal as finding a name you like just fine, a name that fits and serves your baby just fine. If you like, you can add the idea that it’s nice to find a name that makes the naming of future siblings easier, by being a name that goes well with other names you usually like. And then, if you DO find a name you think of as perfect after all, what a happy bonus!

One hard lesson of baby-naming is this: No matter what name you choose, someone else is going to hate it. REALLY hate it. And a whole lot of people are going to think it’s lame or boring or weird. You will not find a name that will make every single person, upon hearing it, think, “Wow! That is THE perfect name!” We all have different tastes in baby names—and there tend to be particularly large rifts between generations. Discussing names with a few trusted friends or relatives can be helpful; discussing them with someone who would call a name “horrible” is unhelpful, and I think it would be safe to exclude that family member from future discussions.

I would take comfort in this: if I had any concerns that my child might actually, literally, seriously have his or her life changed by her or his hatred of her or his name, I would decide ahead of time to make my attitude one that welcomed and encouraged the child to change her or his name if he or she wanted to. I’d keep this reaction ready: “Oh, you hate your name? I always hated mine, too! Well, if you ever want to change it when you were an adult, it’s no big deal—probably a matter of a $100 court fee or something like that. What do you think you might like to go by instead? I used to wish my name were Megan!”

And in the meantime, look for a nice name to give the baby as a placeholder. If you’d like to use an E initial, and if you like names like Emersyn and Adeline and Adelaide, I recommend Emmeline/Emmaline. Emmeline Grace is lovely, and you have Emmaline in your family tree! How wonderful!

If you like Averie and Emersyn, I suggest Emery and Everly.

Elayne does have a bit of a dated sound, but I think Elena is beautiful and current. Elena Grace.

I don’t think Isadora will lead to “Dora the Exporer”—and if it does, it’s difficult to stretch that to a negative association. “Nyah, nyah, you’re adventurous and successful!” (Though I guess I might get tired of hearing them sing “D-d-d-d-d-Dora!”) I think Isabella and Isadora are fine for cousins—even better if Isabella goes by Bella and Isadora goes by Izzy. If Isabella goes by Izzy, however, I might look for a different name. Or I might use Isadora as a middle name, where it wouldn’t be an issue. Everly Isadora, Emery Isadora, Elena Isadora.

Beatrice has some sounds and style in common with Grace. Beatrice Isadora is elegant.

More similar to Emersyn, I’d suggest Brinley. Brinley Grace, Brinley Isadora.

Name update! Bonnie writes:

I wanted to update you and your awesome readers on the birth of our new baby! We had a little girl on November 2nd and we decided to name her Emmerson Grace. We were able to come to this decision because of your help and the thoughtful and sincere comments from everyone who read about our naming troubles. I love Emmerson’s name and we have taken to calling her Emmie Grace which I also love.
I will admit, though, it wasn’t one of those “oh she’s here and I KNOW her name is Emmerson”. She didn’t have a name until we were alone with her for a few hours in the hospital, we were deciding between Violet and Emmerson and in the end and it was really a tough call.

In the end I do love her name and I’m glad we went with Emmerson. We get a ton of compliments and she looks like an Emmerson to me! :) Thank you again for all of your help. 

How Do You Pronounce Lucia?

M. writes:

Hi here, Swistle! I love your blogs and i have a baby name question: How would you pronounce “Lucia”? Just first instinct, without thought, as if you were a teacher calling roll on the first day of school. We are strongly considering it as a name for a baby girl, but I only like one pronunciation and I fear that everyone else assumes the other. Thanks for your opinion!

Lucia is a name that immediately registers two pronunciations with me: if I were a teacher reading out the class list, I would say, “Loo-SEE-ah, Loo-CHEE-ah…?” I know it can also be pronounced LOO-sha, but that one comes to my mind as a distant third.

What pronunciation does everyone else think of first?

Baby Girl or Boy Cole

Samantha writes:

Hello! My Husband, Kevin, and I, Samantha, are expecting our first baby this coming December. Our last name is COLE.

My families tradition is to name children after someone who passed away using the first letter of their name. This gives us A,F, & R. We seem to agree on girls names but differ on boy names. I LOVE unisex names, my husband does not L

So far for girls we have agreed with :
Amelia Brooke (this sounded really nice, I originally wanted to do Amelia Faye.. this was we incorporate two letters)
Alena Rae
Audrey
Addelyn (Husband does not like- I LOVE)
Felicity Reese
Arya Brooke
Ariana
Reagan (eh)
Ashleigh
Rylan

We found A R F difficult, finding so many names outside of them we like.. ESPECIALLY for boys. Other girl options if we break tradition are:
Kennedy
Hannah
Harlow
Hayden
Leighton
Payton

For boys… we have very few names for A R F ( HELP!!) We should just name him Arf..lol.
The middle name has to be Kevin, my husbands name. Its his family tradition.
All we can agree on ( I like many more then he does..)
Aiden
Reese( although he think it sounds to much like a girls name)

That’s it.

Other options we came up with are
Brodie (Husband LOVES…I am not sure if it sounds like a pets name??)
Brayden
Paxton
Nolan
Emmet
Noah
Liam
Eamon
Joshua

Any other suggestions you have we would really appericate it! We really wanted to stay off the top 50 popular names.

 

If you are trying to stay out of the Top 50, that takes Top-10 Aiden off the boy list. Reese would work; I think spelling it Rhys makes it seem more masculine. But it feels a little choppy with the surname.

Other A/F/R suggestions:

Abram
Adrian
Anderson
Archer
Asher
August
Axton
Felix
Finian
Fletcher
Rayden
Ruben
Reilly
Rohan
Roman
Ronan
Ryan
Ryder
Rylan

For girls, I think Addelyn is on course to be more popular than you’d like. We did a post about it earlier this year, when I only had the 2010 Social Security data to work with; here’s how things looked when the 2011 data came out:

Adalyn – 1261 born in 2010; 1458 born in 2011
Adelyn – 825 in 2010; 1052 in 2011
Adalynn – 686 in 2010; 959 in 2011
Adelynn – 458 in 2010; 492 in 2011
Addilyn – 260 in 2010; 341 in 2011
Addelyn – 134 in 2010; 127 in 2011
Adilyn – 133 in 2010; 142 in 2011
Addilynn – 123 in 2010; 154 in 2011
Addalyn – 118 in 2010; 163 in 2011
Adilynn – 105 in 2010; 141 in 2011
Addalynn – 62 in 2010; 77 in 2011
Adalynne – 45 in 2010; 41 in 2011

Only two spellings (Addelyn and Adalynne) went down a little; all the others went up considerably. The total number went from 4,210 in 2010 to 5,147 in 2011, putting the name well into the Top 50.

Amelia Brooke is a wonderful name, with fun initials. Amelia was #30 in 2011—but I am starting to think that this is one of those situations where although you’d prefer to stay out of the Top 50, you LIKE names in the Top 50! (Ashley/Ashleigh is only just recently out of a long run in the Top 10. Audrey is #43. Hannah is #25. Liam and Brayden and Joshua are all Top 50, and Noah and Aiden are Top 10.) And there isn’t anything wrong with that. It would be a shame to choose a name you like less, just because of its ranking.

I also suggest Baby Naming Advice for First-Time Parents.

Baby Girl or Boy Mets, Sibling to Warren

Jilian writes:

Swistle… I’m sending an S.O.S :) I was hoping at this point I wouldn’t need your help, especially having read your blog for months… but here we are almost 38 weeks and still no solid short list if our second (and final) child is a boy! Not sure why boy names allude us but we struggled just as much with our first. At least we had narrowed things down for him. We went into the hospital with Ryker (my favorite!), Warren (family), Thile, and Coleson. After he was born my husband vetoed Ryker and Coleson so we settled on ‘Warren’ Thile (pronounced ‘th’ – ‘eally’). At the time we were still a little unsure but this name is a perfect fit for our laid back son and I couldn’t imagine him being anyone else. I’m ‘OK’ not having the perfect name moment – I just need some choices we agree on, and FAST!

If this little one is a girl she’ll be Alta ‘Paisley’. Warren & Paisley. Alta is a family name and she’ll be Alta #4. Paisley is a name I laid eyes on in a baby book when I was pregnant with my first and fell in love. I had that ‘aha’ moment. To give you a little more sense of our style… runners up names are Celia (family, my husbands mom was Cecilia) and Willa. I swoon when I hear the name Willa and was really close to replacing Paisley – I just don’t like the flow of a double ‘a’ ending with Alta Willa… but Warren and Willa… love.

I don’t have many ‘rules’ restrictions.
– I’m not a fan of the top 100 (especially top 25), but don’t want anything too unfamiliar. This is really the only REQUIREMENT
– I’m leaning against another name that ends with ‘n’. I just can’t get behind the flow of Warren & Nolan or Warren & Stratton. Something about it bothers me.
– I do love that Warren does not have a nickname, but it’s not a requirement.
– I call Warren ‘old-fashioned’ but not ‘dusty’ – but haven’t been able to find another name matching that style. Not a requirement but would be fun.
– I would like to have a family name in there somewhere – but my husband is having a hard time with ANY of our family choices.
– The hardest part of this process is my husbands vetoing power! He likes different but NOT ‘trendy’.
– PS, our last name is like the baseball team METS but with a Z.

Names we are throwing around but haven’t quite committed to:
Stratton (I just can’t quite commit to this one, the ending N is one issue but it’s more than that)
Wade
Everett
Cecil (Again honoring his mom Cecilia)

Family middle name possibilities, we can’t seem to fall for one:
Ryker (I’m keeping this on my list even though he can’t commit to it, says it’s too trendy)
Cecil (most likely)
Wayne (I love this after my dad, my husband REFUSES)
Joshua
Arthur (I dread the nickname Art for some reason)
Whitfield (Maybe even call him Fielder)
Ford

For more background, names I love that he has vetoed or just don’t seen to work:
Oscar
Fisher
Soren (Obviously Warren & Soren would not work!)
Nolan
Theodore

Please tell me you have a slew of suggestions in your pocket that are different, but not too trendy, that my husband won’t veto :) Thanks so much for your (and your readers) help!!  Jilian

PS – I just read the post about Linus and it’s definitely a contender in my book… I’m assuming my hubby will turn his nose up at it though :)

 

 

Name update! Jilian writes:

All that stressing about a boy name and we had a precious little girl! It’s funny how I’d been gung-ho about the name Paisley for over 2 years…. and coming down the home stretch my heart wrapped around the name Celia and felt so content there. Alta Cecilia was born on July 25th weighing in at 9lbs 11ozs :) Thanks so much to your readers for their suggestions, approvals, and disapprovals! Had she been a boy the only name we were even close to choosing was Everett Cecil… but I still don’t know what we would have actually decided on! :)

Celia

Why Aren’t We Using Linus?

Erin writes:

I am not pregnant, nor will I be for quite a while, but names and their popularity fascinate me and I love your blog.
I’ve been thinking. What about the name Linus? I never hear it used. Personally, I think it has an old timey charm without being “too old man”.
The problems I see, however, are the lack of nicknames and the Peanuts connection. Do you think the connection is too strong to make the name useable? In my opinion, I like the connection. Linus is my favorite Peanuts character, especially in the musical You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown. But I also LOVE the Sabrina connection. Humphrey Bogart’s character was Linus Larabee. I really like the character, and I’m a huge Audrey Hepburn (who played opposite Bogart as Sabrina) fan, so that even strengthens the connection for me.

So, why isn’t this wonderful name being used?

I love the Peanuts character of Linus, too: so sweet, and also smart. And although I do strongly associate the name with him, it’s a fully positive association, and I think it would fade as easily as the Peanuts associations with Charlie and Lucy and Violet did as those names got more popular. In fact, Lucy is a good example: I remember when it first started getting popular again, people would mention that they were nervous about the Peanuts association—but I haven’t heard that mentioned in ages now.

I also associate Linus with the Linux operating system, since that’s what Paul uses.

I thought at first the issue might just be that the sounds of Linus are out of date and we need to wait for them to come back around: we’re not using Lyle much, either, even though the name Kyle was very popular there for awhile. But we ARE using Elias (2,961 new baby boys in 2011), which is so close. And we’re using Lila(h) even more: 5,782 babies named Lila/Lyla/Lilah/Lylah in 2011.

Maybe the popularity of Lila is giving Linus a slightly feminine sound? But if it is, I don’t hear it yet.

Maybe the issue is the second syllable: Magnus is the only other name I can think of that uses it, and that was only given to 152 baby boys last year; Linus was given to 124. Oh, and there’s Dennis, which was given to 678 baby boys in 2011, with another 116 named Denis. Hm, and Adonis, which was given to 332 boys in 2011. Still, it’s not a popular ending right now. (Source of all these numbers: Social Security Administration.)

I have wondered if the issue might be that the name sounds somewhat like a personal male body part. I know! I know, it doesn’t really! The first syllable is totally different! It’s only the second syllable, which isn’t even spelled the same way! I can’t explain it; it’s just my immediate association. Uranus has similar issues, poor planet.

What do you think: Why aren’t we using Linus?

Baby Naming Issue: A Formal Version for the Nickname Coco

B. writes:

Growing up, I always loved baby names and I thought for sure that when the time came to actually have a child, the naming process would be very simple! Our baby girl is due in mid August and choosing a name has been anything BUT simple, and that is why I am writing to you! This is our first (and most likely only) child and the surname will be Munro. If we had a boy the name would have been Edwin George. Our favorite name thus far is Coco, and although we 100% love the name, I feel like she should have a more formal full name with the nickname being Coco. No matter how hard I look I cannot find a single name that works as a full name that seems like ‘the name’. The main one we have been considering is Charlotte but it is awfully common in our area, we also really adore Clementine but think it might be a bit of a stretch. Aside from Coco, the other first names we are considering are Veronica, Michelle and Gabrielle. For middle names we like Christine, Gwen, Gabrielle and Veronica. The more we keep looking, the more I’m beginning to think we really should just use Coco as the first name but it feels so incomplete at times. We really need your help! Thank You!!!

You will find plenty of support if you want to name her Coco and not bother with a full form: many people think a formal name is a silly waste if you don’t love it or don’t plan to use it, and I think Courteney Cox and David Arquette helped things further by using Coco as their daughter’s given name.

I find Laura Wattenberg‘s “Would I want this name myself?” test very helpful here: I think of some nicknames (for my generation I use the samples Beth, Jenny, Jess, Angie, Steph, Nicki, Krissy), and then I try to imagine if I myself would prefer (1) to have been named the nickname instead of the full name, so I wouldn’t have the hassle of continually telling people “Please, call me Krissy/Nicki/etc.” when they call me by my full name, OR if I would prefer (2) to have Kristen/Nicole/etc. to fall back on if I wanted it. I usually end up deciding I’d prefer to have a formal name to fall back on: even though the parents might never plan to use it, the child might prefer to have options.

I think that if Coco is The Name, the formal/longer version for it does not ALSO need to be The Name—just as a potential nickname doesn’t have to be The Name if the formal version is. Many a parent who really wanted Charlie has used Charles to get to it; many a parent who really wanted to use the name Annabel has used it even though the nickname Annie produced only a warm feeling instead of a lightning bolt. However, since the child may choose to go by the former version later in life, it’s nice to find one you like very much.

To get the nickname Coco, I would look for a name that started with “Co”:

Colette
Constance
Cora
Coral
Coralee
Cordelia
Corinna
Corinne
Cornelia
Cosette
Courtney
 
The closer the “Co” sound is to the “Co” of Coco, the better—so, for example, I think Colette works perfectly, but that Constance is a bit of a stretch. And I think Coco Chanel’s Frenchness may make the French names feel like a more natural route to the nickname Coco.

I would also look for names with a strong internal “co” sound that matches the sound of Coco: with nicknames, sound can be very important, and Coco might work more naturally for a Nicolette than for a Constance.

Nicole
Nicolette

On the other hand, Coco Chanel‘s formal name was Gabrielle, so nicknames don’t always have to make sense. I see Gabrielle is on your list; one possibility is to name her Gabrielle, nickname her Coco, and say “like Coco Chanel!” to anyone who blinks.

I also seem to remembering hearing Coco used as a nickname for Caroline—probably because it sounds a little similar to Caro. It’s not a natural one to me, but I think I’d come around to it with time.

Baby Naming Issue: If You Promised Not to Use an Honor Name, Do You Have to Keep That Promise?

Melanie writes:

I have a name question, which, while having no urgency at all, has been driving me crazy for years. I am only trying to get pregnant (unsuccessfully), and therefore have no impending infant to name. However, if I am lucky enough to have a child, I am very set on family names or variations thereof. My grandmother was very important to me and she died when I was young. She always made me promise to never ever name a child after her, as she hated her name – Constance L@vonia. Now L@vonia is truly awful but Constance is something I would consider, at least as a middle name. I just can’t though – I promised. Can you think of an alternative? Some way to honor my grandmother AND her wishes? Thanks!

PS – Id consider HER mother’s name except its a) not really my style and b) has already been used in my generation as an honor name. Other names on that side of the family were names my great great grandmother found in books and then altered to make then unique…and therefore are atrocious. (M3rle, P@lma, Aud@…)

 

This is a very, very interesting question to me, and it’s going to be an all-over-the-spectrum comments section, I can tell!

Here are the questions/issues, as I see them:

1. Who owns a name?

2. Who is allowed to name a child?

3. Do people really mean it when they say not to use their names?

4. Once the person has died, should their wishes on “not wanting to hear their own name on a baby” still matter? If so: why? (And at which point do their wishes trump your wishes?—see #s 1 and 2.)

5. Should anyone force a child to promise something like that?

6. If a child promises something like that, are they bound to it as an adult?

 

Let’s start with numbers 5 and 6. I’m reminded of my high school boyfriend, whose deathbed-residing grandfather made him promise to name a son after him. My boyfriend promised, and felt bound by that promise. My feeling on the subject: “YOU WERE SEVEN YEARS OLD AT THE TIME. That was incredibly emotionally manipulative, and totally out of bounds, and completely arrogant and inappropriate of him to demand a namesake, and also it seems pretty chauvinistic because WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE MOTHER OF YOUR CHILD?? Doesn’t HER opinion count for anything?? ‘THE MAN’ gets to promise for both of them?? I THINK NOT!!”

Ahem. I might still be a bit steamed about it.

I think also of my mom’s grandmother, who was…er, enthusiastically involved with the Women’s Christian Temperance Union, and who made all her young grandchildren promise never to touch alcohol—and in fact made them SIGN A CONTRACT to that effect. Is my mother bound by that promise? Certainly not. She was not able to make a promise like that at her age (or to say no to making a promise like that), and my great-grandmother should not have asked her to.

Next I would like to turn attention to numbers 1 and 2, about who owns a name and about who is authorized to make the decision about what to name a baby. We’ve discussed name ownership before, mostly in the context of “Can you re-use a name a friend already used for her baby?,” and in general the idea is that names are many-time-use items (the friend wasn’t the first person to use it EITHER) (unless they actually WERE, but let’s keep this simple), but that we still might want to choose to go with other people’s preferences in the matter because the relationships (and the other people’s feelings) are important to us. But it’s also important to remember that this is because we are being LOVING AND CONSIDERATE PEOPLE (or because we fear conflict), not because we’re “not allowed” to “steal” a name. And what it boils down to is that there is no one who is designated caretaker of a particular name (not the parent of a child with that name, not someone who is named that name) who is allowed to decide who may and who may not use it. The name is available to any parent who wants to use it.

And I think we agree that the people who get to name the baby are that baby’s parents. Other people might give input or ideas, or might hope their family traditions are followed, or might even make the mistake of volunteering names they dislike—but the parents can completely ignore all of these suggestions. So although your grandmother could certainly have mentioned her preferences, she’s not actually allowed to name your future babies—or to tell you what NOT to name them, either.

To review where we are so far:

  • adults should not extract these sorts of promises from children
  • any such extracted promises are not binding
  • your grandmother is not in charge of how her name is used
  • your grandmother may not choose or forbid names for your baby

This all sounds rather harsh and anti-grandmother, doesn’t it? I don’t mean it to sound that way, or as if I think she was trying to do any of these things on purpose; however, I do think it’s important to separate things out so that we can move on to what your actual choices are.

This brings us to #3: Do people really mean it when they say not to use their names?

The thing is, people say stuff they don’t mean ALL THE TIME. We did a post recently that shows what I’m talking about: a woman wrote to us very distressed because she’d planned to name her baby after her dad—and then her dad (not knowing her plan) mentioned that he would “never forgive her” if she named a son after him. NEVER FORGIVE HER! That’s strong language! If her dad had then died before she named the baby, many many people would have said they felt very very strongly that his wishes should be respected. And yet: she talked to him about it and he was embarrassed about what he’d said, and he was surprised and flattered and very pleased when she said they wanted to name the baby after him. And so they did, and everyone was happy.

!!!!

That is, of course, not always going to be the situation. But my GUESS, my GUT FEELING, is that MOST of the time when people say they don’t want children named after them, they don’t actually mean that. Maybe they’ve just enjoyed many years of complaining about their name and this is another way to complain about it enjoyably, or maybe what they’re saying is “I hope you won’t feel like you have to use my name for a child”—but they’re thinking of their name in a different way than we would be. Someone named Henry in the last generation or two might have grown up thinking they had such a dorky, ugly, old-man name—please don’t name any babies after me! But now look: the name Henry is back in style and considered adorable and classic! The descendant doesn’t feel OBLIGATED to use it: they genuinely love the name and WANT to use it! They’re DISAPPOINTED that they have to “respect someone’s wishes”!

Meanwhile, if they went ahead and used it, the always-hated-the-name ancestor would likely suddenly discover they didn’t hate the name at all, and that they were intensely pleased and flattered to have it used. It might turn out that all those mentions of how much they hated their name were like when someone says “Excuse my house” or “I know I should dress more fashionably”: they don’t ACTUALLY feel bad about their house or their clothes, but they fear OTHERS are critical of them. Or they might be fishing for you to say you don’t think their name is so bad, or they might mean “Go ahead, twist my arm!”

So usually my suggestion would be to TALK to the person saying things about their name: be earnest, and say you’d actually really LIKE to use their name—would they truly hate that? Would it OFFEND them somehow, or is it just that they can’t believe anyone would want to use it?

But in your case, and in many similar cases, it isn’t possible to ask. Which brings us to our last point, point #4: Once a person has died, should their wishes on “not wanting to hear their own name on a baby” still matter? If so: why? Either those wishes are now as gone as the person who had them, or else it seems highly unlikely that such things are important in the person’s new eternal point of view.

Even if we imagine a person’s living earthly wishes persisting into eternity, at which point do another person’s wishes trump yours? I think the wish-trumping point comes down to this: Who was in charge of the decision/possession? My mother is in charge of her private journals; if she asks me to make sure they’re burned after she dies, I will do that: her wishes continue to matter after she dies. My grandmother is in charge of her earrings; I wouldn’t have fussed if she’d chosen to leave them to my cousin: her wishes continue to matter after she dies. I respect their wishes to do what they want with their own things, even after their lives are over.

But you are in charge of choosing your babies’ names, and so your love and respect for your grandmother aren’t affected by you going with your own wishes rather than following her wishes—any more than your love and respect for her would be changed by you choosing a different spouse, career, hobby, house, or piercing than she wished you to have. In this case, she would need to respect your wishes to do what you want with your own things.

To review where we are so far:

  • adults should not extract these sorts of promises from children
  • any such extracted promises are not binding
  • your grandmother is not in charge of how her name is used
  • your grandmother may not choose or forbid names for your baby
  • people don’t always mean what they say about not using their names
  • people’s wishes should be respected for their own decisions/possessions

So to me, what we have so far is pretty clear: you can name your baby whatever you want, including the name that your grandmother was named. And since she has died, this makes things both more difficult (because you can’t ask her if she really meant it, and likely find out to your happiness that she didn’t) and simpler (because she is not going to be angry and upset that you went against what she wanted).

It is, however, true that you can’t honor both your grandmother AND the wishes she said she had. It would honor her if you used her name (even if she truly didn’t want you to use it), but it would not honor her stated wishes. You will need to decide which is more important to you: honoring her through your child’s name as you’d like to do, according to your own wishes; or doing what your grandmother used to say she wanted you to do, when she was alive and had wishes.

For me, it would not be difficult: I would be using the name for my own sake, because I wanted to think fondly of my grandmother every time I thought of my daughter’s name, and because I wanted to say “You were named for my grandmother; I was very close to her.” And because in our culture, using someone’s name for a child is a way to show honor and love for someone, and I would want to do that. And because I would think it was unlikely that my grandmother would truly have been upset if I’d used her name for her dear great-granddaughter. I might feel glad that I wouldn’t have to be stressed about whether or not I was right about that—but I think I would also feel confident that if my grandmother could know what I had done, that she would at this stage of her existence be pleased by it.

 

 

 

Name update!

Hi Swistle,

I wrote to you some time ago about using my grandmother’s name, Constance, against her wishes. I had my daughter last year! I discussed my grandmother’s name with my husband, my grandfather (& his new wife), my dad (she was his mother), & my great-uncle (my grandmother’s younger brother). My husband was not a big fan, & neither were the men who knew my grandmother best, her husband and brother. My generation and my dad’s generation all thought it would be wonderful – & none of my relatives knew she had expressly forbade using her name! Apparently she only told me…

After 4 nameless days in the NICU, we named our daughter Cl@ire Suz@nne – a C name for my grandmother, & Suz@nne for my mother who was absolutely thrilled with a tiny namesake. I just kept thinking of my grandmother’s face when she told me not to name a baby after her and couldn’t do it. And my great-uncle told me when she was about 8 weeks old that Claire is a family name on their side as well, way way back somewhere!

Thank you for all of your help! Maybe we’ll be writing to you again in the future!

Melanie

DSC_1808