Baby Naming Issue: The Rule About Not Picking a First Name That Ends in the Same Letter as the Beginning Letter of the Last Name

K. writes:

My husband and I would really, really appreciate your input on breaking a naming rule. The rule we’ve seen out there a lot is that you are not supposed to pick a first name that ends in the same letter as the last name.

We want to break this rule! We love the name Christopher. Our last name is Riolo (pronounced Ree-oh-low). Can we break the rule? No one talks trash about Christopher Robin’s name, and his similarly breaks the rule with Rs.

We are expecting our third baby boy. Our first two boys are Michael and Timothy. We only like classic, timeless, biblical/saint names for our children. There are other boy names we love, like Gabriel and Samuel, but they just don’t go with our last name.

Please, please advise. Thanks so much.

Here is the thing about naming rules: they’re rarely rules. Sometimes I see naming guidelines or naming suggestions, which may or may not CALL themselves rules. But of course at most they’re general guidelines or suggestions: they don’t necessarily apply to a particular situation.

The reason for the guideline you mention is that a shared sound CAN make two names sound like they run together, and/or can make them tricky to pronounce, and/or can make the shared sound seem to disappear from one of the two names. (This can also happen without a shared sound, as in the famed example “Ben Dover”—so it’s something that should be checked regardless.) For example, my own first and middle names are Kristen Nicole; in theory, this could sound like Krista Nicole. Since they’re my first/middle names instead of my first/last names, it’s no big deal. If they were my first/last names, it might be something my parents could have considered—but if they’d decided it was okay, it would still have been no big deal: I doubt the inconvenience of occasionally being mistaken for a Krista would have been any more of a problem than the inconvenience of occasionally being mistaken for a Kristine, which happens despite no issues with the surname. It’s a bigger problem when the run-together makes the name difficult to say, or causes a boy name to sound like a girl name or vice versa, or results in something like Ben Dover.

Do you think Christopher Riolo runs together or is in any other way difficult to say, to the extent that it rules out the name? Do you think it makes it sound like the name is either Christopha Riolo or Christopher Iolo, to the extent that it rules out the name? Do you think the shared letter makes the name embarrassing or difficult for the child? If not, then you don’t even have to break a rule—you just have to decide it isn’t a guideline that applies to this particular situation.

Baby Naming Issue: Juliette

28 Replies

M. writes:

I am very emotional and I need some reassurance about the name my husband and I have chosen for our 3rd daughter (due this January). We have two daughters already, Annabe11e Marie and C1ara E1izabeth. Their names were chosen easily and without any conflict. Our last name is fairly normal and can go well with almost any first name. After much discussion and thought, my husband and I have chosen the name Juliette Pearl for baby #3.

The problem is that I am starting to have doubts about this name. I loved it at first, so much that I told anyone who asked, including our daughters who now refer to “Baby Juliette” all the time. My husband loves the name – he thinks it sounds feminine and elegant and I agree; however, I have some issues. For one, I am thrown off that everyone is pronouncing it JU-liette instead of juli-ETTE. I am also worried that Juliette is such a heavy and grown-up name that it may not “fit” a little girl.

I still love the name…I am just having cold feet. My husband thinks I am being a touch hormonal (which I acknowledge is a real possibility), and that I need to relax. I just wonder: what is your impression of the name Juliette? Is it too much for a child? Is it a sweet and elegant name that matches her sisters’ names? I know you are incredibly in demand and have a lot of requests, so I really appreciate any time that you choose to devote to this issue.

Thank you so much!

I second your diagnosis of cold feet. It sounds like this is the right name for your family.

My guess is that the issue of emphasis will be persistent but minor—similar to the way Annabe11e will, over the years, regularly need to clarify for people that Annabe11e is spelled with two N’s and two L’s and an E. Most names have an issue of this type.

Juliette does not seem like a heavy name to me, which makes it hard for me to consider if it would be too heavy for a little girl. It seems sweet and elegant to me, like Annabe11e and C1ara.

But if you decide it’s not right for you, there’s still a third of the pregnancy left for changes. If you think there’s any chance you might not use the name, I’d start by telling the children that the name is not yet certain, to take some of the pressure off. Hearing the name in their little voices, it can feel like it’s a done deal—but it really isn’t, at this point. And of course I’d tell your husband that you’re not yet certain: he can call it cold feet, but if it’s NOT cold feet, he’s going to keep thinking the issue is closed until you say so. But you still have plenty of time to think and decide, and if you’re not done thinking and deciding, he needs to be brought back into the thinking/deciding stage too, instead of thinking it’s all taken care of.

Name update! M. writes:

Thanks for your help with our baby’s name. After much thought, we stuck with Juliette (nickname Jules) and it fits our little darling PERFECTLY. It’s a perfectly feminine name for the third of three sisters.

As an aside – I just yesterday learned that Mabel was originally a nickname for Annabelle. I wish I had known that six years ago when we named our Annabelle – I LOVE it as a nickname; however, six is a little old to start using that kind of nickname and my daughter hates it. I told her that I will use it when she’s being a stinker. Ha.

Thanks again for your help!

Baby Naming Issue: Olive Bruce

48 Replies

Erin writes:

My husband and I are expecting a baby girl arrival on March 2, 2013. This is our first child and we plan to have 3-4 children. My name is Erin and my husband’s name is Daniel. Our last name is Bruce. Yes, two first names :) (actually, three if you count the middle name). We have been following your blog since the beginning of my pregnancy and have spent a lot of time tossing around name ideas for the baby – thanks for making this so much fun!

Ok, here’s the current dilemma. My husband and I have had a feeling we were having a girl since we discovered I was pregnant. We fell in love the name Olive. We like it for various reasons … the sound of it, the strong feeling it gives, the non-traditional feel while still being pretty, the biblical connotation of Olive coming from the olive tree meaning peace, etc. We began calling the baby “olive seed” once we found out about the pregnancy. This was great until we started saying the full potential name out loud “Olive Bruce” …

[Note from Swistle: While reading this letter for the first time, I paused here and said the name out loud to see if I would discover the same issue: I wanted to see if it would occur to me if I didn’t have it planted. I’m putting a big space here in the letter so you can do the same.]

… and discovered that it might sound too much like olive juice when stated! Ah! I have said the name over and over in my mind so much that I have lost all unbiased and objective view on it. I especially love the full name Olive Amelia Bruce and kind of have my heart set on it. BUT, I want to consider all options for our baby girl and don’t want to put undue hardship on her by giving her a name that reeks havoc on her Bruce last name. What do you think? Would you eliminate Olive as an option with Bruce as a last name?

The runner-up option right now is Esme. Esme Bruce (not sure on middle name). We love this name, too. I picture a completely different little girl, but I still love it. We have ruled out all first and middle names starting with a B. We also have interest in the following names:

Nell (possibly Penelope with nickname Nell or as a middle name)
Emerson (Emmy)
Sinclair (Claire)
Dree
Lowen
Harlow
Elodie

Basically, we are all over the map. Names we would use if the baby was a boy: Julian (Jules), Elliot, Pierce, William. Any help is MUCH appreciated.

THANK YOU!

In my opinion, Olive Bruce does not sound too much like olive juice. When I was first reading your letter, I got to “This was great until we started saying the full potential name out loud…,” and I deliberately looked away from the letter and said the name out loud—and couldn’t figure out what the issue was without reading on.

The main thing for me, I think, is that “olive juice” is not a thing I would say. I’d say “olive brine”—and olive brine doesn’t come up in conversation very often. If the name in question was Apple Bruce, or if the name sounded like orange juice or lemon juice, or if I had more opportunities to refer to olive brine and also frequently called it olive juice instead of olive brine, I might feel differently.

Also, if I were saying “olive juice,” I’d emphasize it differently than if I were saying the name Olive Bruce: I’d put more emphasis on the first syllable of the word olive and under-emphasize the word juice: I’d be saying it adjective-noun instead of name-name.

Also-also, even if other people thought it sounded like olive juice, olive juice is not a negative thing. It would be different if the name sounded like something really awful or embarrassing, but saying “Ha ha, your name sounds like olive juice!” or “Olive Bruce, olive juice!” seems like low-impact teasing.

But if you decide against Olive, Esme is also a wonderful name.

Let’s have a poll over to the right to see what everyone else thinks. [Poll closed; see results below.]

Poll results for “Olive Bruce (read post first)” (533 votes total):

I thought of the issue; it’s a deal-breaker – 45 votes (8%)
I thought of the issue; it’s not a deal-breaker – 42 votes (8%)
I thought of the issue; I can’t decide – 27 votes (5%)
I didn’t think of the issue; it’s a deal-breaker – 12 votes (2%)
I didn’t think of the issue; it’s not a deal-breaker – 375 votes (70%)
I didn’t think of the issue; I can’t decide – 32 votes (6%)

Middle Name Challenge; Family Honor Names in a Divided Family; Honor Names vs. Dearly Loved Names

14 Replies

Jessica writes:

I am a devoted reader of your blog – I absolutely love it and think you give the best advice. I was convinced that because I’m such an avid reader I would never need to ask you for help, but here I find myself 30 weeks pregnant and at a total loss!

My name is Jessica, my husband is Patrick and we both have a hyphenated last name that sounds like Rinn-Loven. We have a two year old son named Milo Thomas and are expecting a little girl in early November who will definitely be our last child. After spending a LOT of time thinking about names, we are 99% certain that this little girl will be named Cora. We love that it’s short, classic, feminine without being frilly and “Cora, Unashamed” is a favorite short story of mine. I’m a little concerned that it’s getting too popular but think I love it enough that I don’t care. If for some reason she comes out and absolutely is not a Cora, other favorites are Olive, Rosalind, and Matilda. But I’m pretty sure she’s Cora.

But I’m writing because I am terribly stuck on a middle name. Middle names are important to me; we often call Milo by his full name and I love that Thomas is after my father in law who passed away soon before Milo was born and was a wonderful man. Since Milo’s middle comes from my husband’s family, we decided this baby’s middle would come from mine. The problem is that my parents split up when I was very young and my family has always been very divided and I’m afraid if I choose one side I will be letting down the other. So here are our current favorites and the concerns we’re having with each one:

Cora Hazel (husband’s favorite) – Hazel was my paternal grandmother and someone I was very close to. Concerns are that the names don’t seem to flow all that well together and my mother and grandmother very much did not get along, so I’m worried that my mother would be upset if I chose Hazel.

Cora Shane – my sister is named Shaynee and is the person I am closest to in the world. Plus, like me she represents both sides of my family. Problem is that I usually really don’t like traditionally male names on girls, so I’m worried about using Shane (but Shaynee really isn’t my style) plus I have a younger half-sister so is it awful to use the name of only one sister?

Cora Frances – this is a bit of a stretch but researching my ancestors I saw that my great-grandparents came to the U.S. on a ship called the France and I thought it would be nice and not too controversial in my family if I used Frances. My husband’s not thrilled about the name, though.

We tried to think of non-family names that still have meaning for us and we both seem to like:
Cora Beatrice
Cora Clementine
Cora Flannery
Cora Juliet
Cora Scout

But none of these feel quite right. If we’re not using a family name, we’d like the name either to have a nice meaning or for it to reflect a literary character or strong historic woman so that it still had some meaning for us. I know I might sound crazy to some people because it’s “just” a middle name, but middles are really important to me and since this will be my only daughter I desperately want to get it right.

Any suggestions or advice you or your readers have would be much appreciated. Thank you!

and

Me again with one quick update in case you choose to post my question. We’re still 99% sure our little girl is Cora and top contenders for middles are still Hazel, Shane or Frances but we’ve decided that our second favorite name is definitely Olive, so if the baby is not Cora she’ll be Olive. My husband is 100% settled on using Cora, which I still love but I’m finding myself incredibly sad at the thought of never having an Olive, which is a name I have adored for a long time. So the question is, should we go with Cora Olive? Does that sound terrible together? Am I missing the chance to give her a special connection with a family member if I don’t use an honor name like her brother has?

I think honor names end up being primarily for the satisfaction of the parents. I do think many people feel happy about their own honor names, and that they do feel a connection to that family member or historical figure as they tell their naming story over the years—but that many other people don’t care much either way and/or don’t feel an increased connection. I continue to feel so happy that I gave my eldest son my grandfather’s name as his middle name—but my eldest son barely cares at all. My grandfather died when my son was very little, so there’s no special connection there; the name was instead about my own connection to my grandfather. I think Rob likes that he has an honor/family name (and my grandfather definitely liked that I used it), but I think he would also have liked a non-honor name.

So for me, the sadness at never having an Olive would trump the connection to a family member or literary character—especially in a family where an honor name is likely to come with stressful issues and possibly hurt feelings. Your daughter would have the same middle-name naming story as my daughter does: that one of her parents loved the name so much, it had to be used. It’s a good naming story; it has gone over well at our house in our tellings of it to her. The special connection of the name would be to you, because of your love for it. Furthermore, it’s fun to think that because of that story, your daughter might use her middle name as her own daughter’s first name someday: you might get a granddaughter named Olive!

But that’s only how my own feelings are ranked. Your own feelings might not be the same: maybe when you think it over, you’ll find that your sadness at not using a namesake name trumps your sadness at never using the name Olive. Maybe you’ll find it would be enough to instead use the name Olive for a pet, or for a doll for your daughter.

If you don’t use Olive, I think Shaynee is the clear best choice. With the name Hazel, I was thinking of my late mother-in-law and how I’d be okay (if a bit teeth-clenched for a moment) if one of my kids named a child after her—but I think my feelings would be more extreme if Paul and I had split up and it was my EX-mother-in-law we were talking about. I would hope that a sweet little granddaughter would give me a new association with the name, but it would be a hurdle because I’d know the association was MEANT to be there. With the name Frances (for the boat France), it feels like too slim a connection to be worth giving up the name Olive.

But with the name Shaynee, I love that it would be for someone you have a close relationship with (someone your daughter could also hope to have a close relationship with, hugely increasing the odds that the name WOULD give her a special connection with a family member), and I love your reasoning that your sister belongs to both families equally. I’d use the actual name, rather than modifying it: I think naming style is only a tiny, tiny issue with an honor name—and since neither the original name nor the modified name fit your style, I’d use the original. (If you do go with the modified version, I think I’d go with the spelling Shayne: it makes it more feminine AND makes it more like your sister’s name.) Cora Shaynee Rinn-Loven. I am trying hard not to PUSH you to use this, because I anticipate it bringing you so much satisfaction in the future—and I’m imagining what a thrill it would be for your sister!

Another option is to use two middle names: give her a family honor name AND the name you love, and it’s win-win. Cora Shaynee Olive. It’s a lot of name with a hyphenated surname, but the names are short and most of them will be tucked away; for everyday use, she’d just be Cora Rinn-Loven.

I don’t think you have to use the names of both sisters. I see how it could be a little awkward if you were having two daughters—but you’re only having one daughter, so it seems like it makes sense that you’d just choose one honor name, and that the name you’d choose would be of the person closest to you. I also hope it will be delicately clear to the whole family that using your half-sister’s name would be more fraught with issues than using your sister’s name.

So, let’s see. I think you’ll be most happy with Cora Olive or Cora Shaynee, so those are the two I’m voting for. But there’s another possibility, and that’s that she’ll be born and you’ll take one look and both say, “Oh, man, she’s definitely an Olive!” In that case, she could be Olive Shaynee: the dearly-loved name and the dearly-loved family member.

Name update! Jessica writes:

I can’t thank you enough for posting my question. You and your readers’ responses gave us a lot to think about and ultimately helped us choose our little girl’s name. Cora Olive was born on November 7th and is just perfect. I’m so excited that I got my Olive and already can’t imagine her by any other name! Thanks again!

Middle Name Challenge: Nathaniel _____ G.

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G. writes:

I definitely could use some name advice.

We already have one son, born January 2010, named Noah Christopher. Our last name starts with a hard G like in “goal.” Christopher is my husband’s middle name and he just liked Noah.

I am due with boy #2 on Feb 25, 2013. We have agreed (for now) on Nathaniel for the first name but are stumped for a middle. Husband’s first name is Johnathan (and it was originally supposed to be John Nathan Christopher until his mother objected), so we’re taking the Nathan from that.

I suggested Joshua, my husband’s brother’s name, as a middle. Husband doesn’t like the sound of the J following the ending L.

We would both consider giving the baby a middle name after my dad, but his names are both fairly awful – Eugene Francis. He does go by Gene (and my name is derived from his), but I don’t think the husband would go for that since Gene has the same starting sound as Joshua. I might try to convince him. My dad doesn’t like his name, so I don’t really feel like pushing past my dislike would be worth it, even though I would love to find a way to incorporate his name.

There are no other good male family names on either side to choose from, and we’re kind of stumped. Despite what our choices in names indicates, we’re not particularly religious, so no requirements there.

Middle names husband has rejected so far: Joshua, Lee, Anthony

Since both boys have names honoring your husband’s side of the family (and do they also have your husband’s surname?), I feel very motivated to find a middle name that honors your side this time. Perhaps even if your husband doesn’t find the L/G combination ideal, he can tolerate it for the sake of honor and balance? Nathaniel Gene is great, and I suspect your father would find new appreciation for his name seeing it on his grandson; it’s particularly encouraging that he liked his name well enough to give a version of it to you. And since the two names from your husband’s side are directly from your husband’s own names, it gives a pleasing balance to find a name that reflects your own name as well as your dad’s.

But if you’re not keen on Gene either, are there any surnames from your side that would make good middle names?

Or perhaps you could find something that represents your family’s ancestry? Or the name of an important town/street in your family’s history?

Or, I suppose we could go back for another name from your husband: if the Nathan- of Nathaniel is from Johnathan, the middle name could be John. Noah Christopher and Nathaniel John. While I’d prefer a better balance of family names, in some families the names just don’t work out that way. And it does appeal to think of both boys having names from their father. And it does make a good naming story: from John Nathan to Johnathan to Nathaniel John. My first choice, though, is still Nathaniel Gene.

Without the surname, it’s difficult to find more middle names that would sound good with the whole name, but here are some that I like with Nathaniel:

Nathaniel Charles
Nathaniel David
Nathaniel Davis
Nathaniel Dean
Nathaniel Emmett
Nathaniel Everett
Nathaniel Flynn
Nathaniel Frederick
Nathaniel Henry
Nathaniel Louis
Nathaniel Owen
Nathaniel Peter
Nathaniel Ryan
Nathaniel Sawyer
Nathaniel Scott
Nathaniel Shepard
Nathaniel Tyler
Nathaniel Wesley
Nathaniel Wilson

Baby Naming Issue: Do You Think "Falling Down" When You Hear the Name London With Certain Surnames?

21 Replies

I have noticed something, and I want to do a poll to see if this is something LOTS of people do, or if it’s something where you will be looking for a delicate way to ask me if I’m off my meds.

Here it is: I notice that the nursery song “London Bridge is Falling Down” is so hardwired into my brain that if I try to use the first name London with any surname that has even the same RHYTHM as “bridges” (I now know it’s “bridge is,” but I didn’t know that for many many years—and besides, it has the same rhythm either way), my mind leaps immediately to “falling down.”

So, for example, if I tried the name London with the surname Johnson, I’d say “London Johnson” and then I’d immediately think “…falling down, falling down, falling down.” Same with London Williams, London Walker, and London Carter: my mind adds “falling down,” because of the rhythm. (These are just random examples; feel free to substitute your own 2-syllable surnames for testing.)

This doesn’t happen if it’s a different rhythm. If it’s London St. Clair, I don’t think “falling down.” If it’s London Jones, I don’t think “falling down.” If it’s London Anderson, I don’t think “falling down.” It’s only if it’s a two-syllable surname with the same rhythm as “bridges”/”bridge is.”

I suspect most of this is because I don’t know anyone named London: to me it still registers first as a place that has a bridge. If I knew a London, my guess is that this effect would fade considerably if not completely.

And now what I want to ask you is: Is it the same for you? Let’s have a poll over to the right. [Poll closed; see results below.]

Screen shot 2014-06-18 at 9.47.19 AM

Baby Girl or Boy, Sibling to Hank and Stella

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Kinsey writes:

Here we go. You’ve helped me twice before so I’m counting on you again! This is the biggest predicament we’ve been in though. I’m pregnant with our third child (gender will be a surprise) and we are absolutely clueless on girl options for our baby!! Neither of us like anything at all! We have a 3 yr old boy, Joseph Hank (goes by Hank), and a 14 month old girl, Stella Rose. Both kids have family names (Joseph and Rose) and we are thinking of one of the following family names for middle if baby is a girl: Leigh, Lauren, Clark

Some things to think about:
We like different, without being too weird.
I love the double L in Stella and think it would be neat to find another girl name with that, but definitely not a must.
Obviously we like old school names.
I like girly names, but still with spunk!

Suggest away!
Thanks!

If the baby is a boy, it would be fun to find a name that parallels Hank’s: a name like Joseph, followed by a name like Hank. Something like William Gus.

Names like Joseph:

Andrew
Daniel
David
Matthew
Michael
Nicholas
Samuel
William

Names like Hank:

Abe
Dean
Gus
Ike
Mack
Mitch
Moe
Otto
Sully

A few sample combinations:

Andrew Dean
Daniel Mack
David Abe
Matthew Otto
Michael Sully
Nicholas Mitch
Samuel Abe
William Gus

Or, if you’d rather not call him by his middle name, I think I would choose a first name that ideally sounded like both Joseph and Hank: Samuel, for example, which goes well with Joseph, but then Sam goes well with Hank. Or Nicholas: Joseph/Nicholas, Hank/Nick.

If the baby is a girl, I suggest the name Harriet. It has a double R, and I think it’s great with Stella and Hank. More suggestions:

Alice
Bonnie
Charlotte (Lottie, Charlie)
Cordelia (Delia)
Frances (Frankie)
Georgia (Georgie)
Hazel
Henrietta
Ivy
Louisa
Louise
Lucille (Lucy)
Lydia
Mattea (Mattie)
Milly
Molly
Ruby
Matilda (Tilly)
Phoebe
Tess

Name update! Kinsey writes:

Baby #3 is a GIRL and we are thrilled! Branum Everleigh Powell was born today, March 27th, and we love her name! Branum (bran-um) is my maiden name and my parents only had daughters, so we thought even though it might take some people getting used to it, we love her unique name. My dad is thrilled for it to be carried on ;). And my sister’s middle name is Leigh so putting a spin on that for the middle seemed just perfect to us too! Thanks for all of your suggestions! Our other top choices were Millicent and Lucy, but we couldn’t pass up family…
Cheers!

Baby Girl or Boy Shafer, Sibling to Lily Grayce

19 Replies

Jessica writes:

So we have a baby naming dilemma – so much so that my dear husband keeps saying, “well, we have 10 days after the baby is born…”
Yikes!

Our last name is pronounced Shafer. We have one daughter, Lily Grayce. We used Grayce with a ‘y’ in honor of good friends, and the mum happens to be British, so the “y” version is the popular spelling. We’re not too concerned about popularity, and prefer that over odd spellings and unheard-of names. Where we live “Lily” is not all that popular, despite it sitting high on the charts, we know one other Lily who is about 5 years older than ours.
My husband’s name is Eric and my name is Jess(ica) but as I usually go by the shorter, we all end up with four letter names with distinct letters – this makes it easy and neat, and we like it, but we’re not stuck on 4 letters. We do prefer to have different initials at least between siblings and preferably the whole family. We’d love to have 4 kids at least if life allows, so we’re trying not to get into too much of a pattern – hence we’re not wanting to go with another “L” name for fear of having either all “L” names (tricky) or changing after kid 1&2 which feels odd. We also don’t want to get into a pattern of “y” or “ie” endings. It seems like “er” ending names clash with our last name, so we’re not having luck there either – between the “y”/”ie” and the “er” that knocks out a lot of names!
We’re not finding out what we’re having this time, but we already have our options fairly settled for boy names, it’s girls we need help with!

We do tend to favor shorter names, and if we were to chose a longer name we would likely use a 1-2 syllable nickname on a daily basis. We even cut Lily down to “Lils..” a lot, so we’re pretty lazy..!
We love Ruby, but it keeps us in the “y” ending… also considering Claire/Clara, Pearl, Olive (but not Olivia), and Sage.
I like Stella, Astrid, and Hazel, but my husband was not convinced. He has no ideas of his own. Our 2.5 year old would like to call the baby “Baby Poptart.”

We like Jade, but don’t like the meaning. We have also avoided short R girl names due to a close in age girl cousin named a variation of Ryan and a close friend named Roma, tho we are willing to bend on that for the perfect name! We’ve discarded flower names as well due to not wanting an obvious garden… but we’re ok with plant and nature names.

If it helps, our top boy names are Milo, Jude, and Rowan, which would likely be paired with the middle name of Ellis, tho we’re not decided by any means…

Can you save our 2nd kiddo from being “Baby Poptart” forever?

and

4-8 weeks to go (depending on who you ask and how long this one likes to bake) but still no settling on a name! We have some updates and changes tho, so perhaps you’ll be up for helping – pretty pretty please? :D
We’re down to boy’s names Milo or West, which obviously have very different feels to them. We did favor the middle name “Maxin” (spelled with an ‘o’ not an ‘i’) which is my husband’s grandmother’s maiden name, however we’re not sure about it with our last name (pronounced Shafer). My good friend and name lover greatly dislikes West (not a breaking point) and recommends Weston, but it reminds me of both the TV show Burn Notice and the Weston Price Foundation… maybe neither are an issue – thoughts? We have considered playing of my maiden name somehow to make a middle name for West or Weston – my maiden name is said Ree-mal-ee (spelled simply) so we considered using something like “Remington” but are afraid this might sound a bit NRA :) That’s where we sit with the boys.
For girl names, we’ve added a new favorite to the top spot: Gwen. We keep debating different “Gwen-” names but keep coming back to Gwen because we’re certain to shorten it to that for daily use anyway. Finding a middle name here again poses a bit of an issue. My husband suggested Pearl, but then we have GPS.. again, maybe not an issue. I’m not certain it’s a great match tho, seems like we need a longer middle to make things flow better and we just can’t seem to find one that fits.
Backups to Gwen we’re still considering are Ella, Elle, Claire, and Ruby (tho we’re still not fond of adding to the “-y / -ie” collection.
Will you give us a much needed hand?

The name Gwen seems great to me: four letters, but new initial, new ending, new sound. I agree with you: I’d want a middle name with more than one syllable. I’d go through the list of names that you liked but didn’t want to use in the first name slot because they started with L or R or had an -ie/-y ending. Gwen Ruby Shafer is very nice.

If you like Claire/Clara but would prefer four letters, I suggest Cora. Cora Shafer; Lily and Cora.

Or Cleo. Cleo Shafer; Lily and Cleo. This wouldn’t allow for Milo later, though.

If you like Ruby, you might like Ruth. Ruth Shafer; Lily and Ruth.

Or June. June Shafer; Lily and June.

Elle and Ella make me think of Anna. Anna Shafer; Lily and Anna.

I think Gwen is the best one, though.

If the baby is a boy, I favor Milo—not only because that was one of our finalist names for Henry, and I still have a soft spot for it, but also because it seems to have fewer issues than the name West. I prefer the name West to the name Weston, but the name West has the unfortunate issue of making names sound like towns: West Shafer. I also find the transition between -st and Sh- a little difficult to say: I end up with something like Wes Chafer.

I like Westley best as a longer form: that would still give you the four-letter nickname West, while also impressing fans of The Princess Bride AND removing associations with foundations and towns. It does give you another -ly name, but I think two in a row is a surmountable pattern, especially since one is a boy and one is a girl. (It’s three in a row where I think it’s nearly impossible to resist the pressure.)

But Milo avoids all these issues, so that’s what I’d go with. Milo Shafer is wonderful; Lily and Milo is wonderful. I like Maxin fine with your surname, or I like the idea of using your maiden name as-is: Milo Maxin Shafer or Milo Reemalee Shafer. I prefer Maxin, because I’d prefer to avoid the initials MRS. If the actual spelling of your maiden name looks feminine, it would be nice for a girl: Gwen Reemalee Shafer.

Baby Boy Bieber

20 Replies

N. writes:

We are expecting our first child, a boy, this January and I am having the hardest time settling/making my peace with a name! We had all sorts of girl names that we loved but boy names are a completely different story . . . honestly, my first thought when we found out the gender was – how will we ever find a name?! And ever since then, I’ve just been going round and round in my head about it.

So, here are the details: our last name sounds like Bieber (No, “Justin” is not a contender) but is spelled differently and we will be giving the baby my maiden name as a second middle name. My maiden name sounds like Elbrecht (pronounced *very* German, like you’re sneezing at the end, not “Elbright”). We both would really like to use family names and would like something uncommon but not weird. Although, to be perfectly honest, I’d be willing to break the family name rule if we found a name that we really loved.

Ok, the lead contender right now is Hartman David, but I keep worrying that Hartman is too strange and/or people hate it. Does it make you think of Cartman from South Park? Is it less weird if he goes by Hart? But I do like that David means beloved and that Hart is close to, well, heart. Goes together, right? Plus, he could always go by David if he really hated Hart.

If we don’t use Hartman as the first name, it’ll definitely be the second as we’re both agreed that we want to honor the person it’ll be after. Other possible first names under consideration:
Clark (husband worried about “Clark” being associated with Clark Griswold, I worry that Clark is too “hard” sounding)
Owen (possibly my favorite, although I worry that it is just too popular, and my husband has a mild distaste for it for some reason . . .)

Considered but discarded:
Xavier (my favorite, husband hates)
Wyatt (my second favorite but not a family name and previously claimed by friend)
Richard (hated by current name-holder)
Paul (just no love for it in particular)
Benjamin, Andrew, Joseph (too common)
Lloyd, Vernon, Virgil, Olaf (too weird, also, by this point, we are way back in ye olde family tree)

Although this will be our first babe, we plan to have several more so . . . hopefully they will be girls! (Just for ease of naming, of course.) And, for reference, the girl name we loved was Eloise.

Please, please help!

Oh, I forgot one! I also suggested Calvin in the beginning (because of my love for A Wrinkle in Time and Calvin and Hobbes) and we both thought it acceptable but ultimately haven’t pursued it because it’s not a family name. Part of me wonders if I just need to let that go since it seems so constraining . . . but then I love the idea of making the name a tie to family history and previous generations.

Thank you!

Reading about how difficult it is to come up with enough family name candidates for even the first child of a hoped-for several, I do think you should consider changing that policy. Or rather, I think you should consider deciding that three family/honor names per child is enough to satisfy that preference, and the fourth name can be one you chose because you liked it. And then it won’t matter as much if the family/honor name is one you don’t fervently love or is a little unusual or is one that someone else already used, because you can use it as the first of the two middle names and voila! Or if you find you have plenty of family names to choose two different ones for every single girl you have, that will be fine too: the rule would just be “At least one family/honor name, in addition to the two other family names each child will automatically get,” instead of “All four names need to be family/honor names.”

The name Hartman first makes me think of Phil Hartman, which would be a positive association for me except that I also think right away of his sad death. But it’s hard to say what percentage of the population would think the same way, and his murder was fourteen years ago now. It’s unlikely the child’s peers will make the association, even if a percentage of the peers’ parents/teachers do.

I do then think of Cartman. It’s unfortunate, because Hartman is a wonderful name. And if I knew a baby named Hartman, I wonder if both associations would quickly vanish? And having multiple associations does tend to diffuse the strength of any one association. And it’s an honor name, and “It’s a family name” is a very useful thing to say.

When I write out Hartman David Elbrecht Bieber, I notice that it looks like three surnames and one first name. Would you like David Hartman Elbrecht Bieber instead? It seems as if it solves all the problems while keeping all the names. The name David feels common, and was #18 in 2011 according to the Social Security Administration, but so far none of my children have had a David in the classroom. Perhaps many of the children named David are namesakes going by middle names instead? Or perhaps it’s that my particular town is David-poor and all the Davids are piling up in other children’s classrooms.

For the name Clark, my first thought is “Oh, great fresh surname name!”—the same as I think when I hear of a child named Smith or Miller. My other association is with Clark Kent, and that’s a positive one. I don’t think of Clark Griswold, but I’ve never made it all the way through a National Lampoon movie. Paul has watched them repeatedly, so I emailed him at work and asked him “If you heard of a baby named Clark, would you think of Clark Griswold?” He replied: “No, I’d think of Clarks Kent and Gable.”

I’d also suggest Grant, which is in the same file drawer of my mind.

Calvin seems like a wonderful option to me. Calvin Hartman Elbrecht Bieber, with the great nickname Cal if you want it. I love it.

If Owen is close-but-not-quite, I suggest Ian—unless that vowel sound is odd with the surname, as I think it would be if it were exactly like Bieber, in which case I suggest Evan or Nolan or Rohan.

Name update! N. writes:

I gave birth to our baby son a few days ago and wanted to write to thank you for your help! We honestly hadn’t thought about how much Hartman sounds like a surname previously – and how strange that would be to proceed a name that sounds like a first name (aka Hartman David) – so your advice decided us on using Hartman as a middle. We were going with David Hartman for a long time, but ultimately I was just too uncomfortable with how popular it was and my husband didn’t like the nicknames Dave or Davey. Soooo, we went back to the family tree and decided on a male version of Eloise (you’ll remember that this was our favorite girl name, and it is also a family/honor name for us) – and landed on Elliott, with the nickname Eli. And we couldn’t be happier with the name and our son!

Baby Naming Issue: Are Calvin and Alice Too Similar?

16 Replies

Lisa writes:

Our second child is set to arrive mid-March. We did not find out the gender the first time around and will not this time either. For our first child we had narrowed down our name choices to Calvin or Miles for a boy and Alice for a girl. We had a boy named Calvin David! Now, as we are narrowing down the choices for our second child, I am not sure whether Calvin and Alice sound awkward together because of the repeition of the “al.” We were SO set on it for a girl the first time around and now we are having major second thoughts when it is paired with Calvin. We are planning to have more children (4 or 5 total, so we could always hold off on Alice if it is a girl and hope to use the name when it won’t be so closely paired with Calvin). Other names we like for girls are : Beatrice, Daphne, Eloise, Greta and Millie. For boys, we like Brooks, Miles and Wesley, which I think all go fine with Calvin!
So, what do you think: Calvin and Alice…yay or nay?

I vote that Calvin and Alice are not too similar. I think this is one of those situations where if I were suggesting the name Alice to you, I’d think it was worth pointing out that the -al- sound repeats so that you could think about it beforehand, but I’d be saying that in my opinion it tied the names together nicely rather than sounding repetitive.

If it continues to bother you, I do like your idea of setting the name aside for a possible future girl: separating the names with another name or two would definitely diminish the similarity. It’s a risk, of course, since you might not have another girl—so it’s a matter of how sad you’d be if you gambled on this plan and then didn’t get to use the name. The best of all would be if you had a boy this time, since that would separate the names automatically, without a gamble!

If you have a girl this time and choose to delay using Alice, we’d want to look at each of the other names on your girl list and see if any of those would rule out using Alice later. Beatrice, for example: would it bother you to repeat the -ice ending? Try it out and see: Calvin, Beatrice, and Alice. Or if you use Eloise, would it bother you to have two girls starting with a vowel-L combination? Calvin, Eloise, and Alice. All of these will be so subjective: if it were me, I’d rather not have two -ice endings in a row (though I wouldn’t mind if they were separated by another child, I don’t think), but I don’t mind the El/Al issue; someone else might be the other way around, or dislike both, or not mind either.

Let’s have a poll over to the right to weigh in on the immediate question, which is whether it’s okay to use Alice this time, if the baby is a girl. [Poll closed; see results below.]

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Name update! Lisa writes:

We welcomed a little girl on March 25th. Because we do call our son Cal just as much as we call him Calvin, in the end I shyed from Alice because of my hesitation on having a Cal and Al. We waited to decide until after our daughter was born, but ultimately decided on Eloise Jane. So, we have a Calvin and Eloise or Cal and Ellie. Very unintentionally French, but we are happy with our choice! Thanks for your help!!