Baby Girl or Boy Owens, Sibling to Eli Dane

35 Replies

Hi Swistle!
We are expecting baby #2, and could use a little help with a name. We will not find out gender, which makes it twice as hard! We are fairly set on middle names, as we will probably pass along my husband’s middle name to a boy (Alan) and my middle name to a girl (Marie), to continue a tradition. We skipped this tradition with my first son’s middle name (Dane), as we honored my elderly grandfather instead.

We would prefer to stay away from overly common names, in fact, Eli is even a little too common for our liking. Yet, we are hoping to stay away from names that are hard to pronounce or spell, or sound made-up. We also don’t want another “El-” name, although I LOVE the name Eliza. It was actually our “girl” name for our son. Lastly, I don’t want a name that ends in an “O,” given our surname. I love Milo and Leo, but crossed them off because I feel like it just runs into our last name, or sounds stutter-y.

Some boy names we like, but may be too common for us include: Noah, Henry, Landon
Some girl names we like, but may be too common for us include: Evelyn, Nora, Layla

A few boy names currently in the running: Toby, Jasper, Sawyer, Adrian, Soren, Chase, Cody, Wyatt, Isaiah.
Toby may be the front runner at this point. I like Jasper…unique and masculine, but I’m a little afraid of the “Twilight” connection…still too strong? I love Sawyer, but I worry a little about pronunciation “Saw-yer vs Soy-yer.” Personally, I’d probably say Soy-yer, even though the other may be phonetically correct, because Saw-yer is hard for me to pronounce. The others are “eh” names…but could grow on me.

Our current list of girl names include: Taya, Raina, Vianne, Corinna, Mattea, Linnea.
People seem to have an easier time with girl names, but we are the opposite. Taya may be our front-runner, but I worry about pronunciation (I like TAY-uh) and spelling. It would also be a great nn for Mattea, but spelling is an issue (Tea?). Honestly, I’m not sold on any of these names the way I was with Eliza. I loved the connection with My Fair Lady…classic, spunky and sweet. Along these lines, I like Annie for a nn (Vianne?), but my husband doesn’t seem to love it.

We also hope to have a third (or fourth!?) child, and don’t want to create a “rule” so to speak. For example, if we go with “Eli & Adrian,” (Eli Manning, Adrian Peterson), will people think we are football-crazy? Or, If we go with “Eli & Isaiah,” if we name a third child something non-biblical, will it stand out?

Lastly, I’m not sure we want an extremely long name, next to our “short & sweet” Eli. I’m thinking 6-7 letters, max, unless we have a great nn.

I would be THRILLED if you are able to feature this, as I would LOVE any input you might have.

Thanks so much for your time! I PROMISE to update you when baby comes :)
~L

One of the things I find most interesting about baby names is how the second child’s name “spins” the first child’s name. If a family has a child named Noah, for example, and then they name their second child Liam, it’s a totally different effect than if they name the second child Moses. So I do think you’re sensible to consider the effect of the second child’s name. I wouldn’t have noticed the Eli and Adrian tie-in, but Eli and Isaiah does start a biblical theme for me.

As with other themes, though, I don’t really consider it a theme until the third child matches. If a family has a Noah and a Natalie, I notice the matching N but don’t blink if they name the third child a name not starting with N (in fact, I feel relief that they didn’t feel pressured into it); if, however, they have Noah, Natalie, and Nathan, I feel like they’re all but committed to the N theme at that point—particularly if they plan only one more child.

Since you’re planning 3-4 children, I think the easiest way to avoid a theme is to avoid it for the first two: Eli and Isaiah won’t seem as themed if you have a Sawyer in between. But if Isaiah is your top favorite, or Adrian is, I say go ahead and do it: if people do see a connection, it still doesn’t seem like a large issue. Maybe someone would say “Oh, Eli and Adrian—are you football fans?” and then you’d say “Oh, no, it’s a coincidence—we just liked the names.”

For me, the Twilight problem has all but disappeared. I still wouldn’t name siblings Edward and Bella, but names such as Jasper and Emmett and Alice feel available—and I’d use the names Edward and Bella individually without worrying that anyone would think it was because of Twilight. I looked in my archives, and parents were asking about or worrying about Twilight associations regularly until mid-2013, when it stopped; the concern peaked in 2010. This indicates to me that the associations are disappearing from people’s minds. And Jasper is my favorite from your list. Jasper Owens; Eli and Jasper.

If you don’t mind hearing Sawyer pronounced both ways by other people, then I don’t think pronunciation has to be an issue. I get concerned about it mostly when parents say they hate one pronunciation, or that one pronunciation drives them crazy; in that situation, it doesn’t seem worth the inevitable stress and irritation. And the difference in pronunciation between Soy-yer and Saw-yer is subtle to my ear and local accent.

If you like Mattea and Taya, it does seem like a natural solution is to use the latter as a nickname for the former. I don’t see any reason you can’t use the spelling Taya: it’s common for nicknames to be spelled differently than the starting name. For example, it’s fine to use Abby for Abigail, instead of using Abi; it’s fine to use Bree for Brianna/Gabriella/Aubrey, instead of Bri/Brey; it’s fine to use Zac for Isaac, instead of Saac; it’s fine to use Joe for Joseph, instead of Jo; it’s fine to use Jake for Jacob, instead of Jac.

My first guess upon seeing Taya was TIE-yah (I think because I know one Maya and one Amaya, both of whom use the long-I pronunciation), but I immediately knew it could also be TAY-ya and would say it that way if reading from a class list (“TIE-yah, TAY-yah?”), and I would quickly learn to say TAY-ya. Téa Leoni helps a little with the pronunciation of the Tea spelling, and you could spell it her way with the accent over the E—though that does seem a little odd when the full name doesn’t have the accent. Well, I also think this is an area where you could let things evolve naturally if you don’t have negative feelings about any of the options: name her Mattea, and call her Taya/Tea/Téa, and see how the spelling shakes out over time. Personalized stuff can have “Mattea” on it, avoiding the issue for most situations.

When I see Corinna and Nora, I think of Cora. Cora Owens; Eli and Cora.

I’m sorry about the name Eliza, because it’s one of my top favorites—but I see what you mean about Eli and Eliza. I was trying to think of a name that seemed similar to me, and Fiona is the only one I can think of—but I don’t like it at all with Owens. Perhaps something like Penelope/Penny/Nell/Pip? I know you’d rather avoid a long name, but I think it works quite well when the boys and girls in a family have different types of names. A few more possibilities:

Cecily
Felicity
Genevieve
Georgia
Hazel
Josephine
Lydia
Philippa
Winifred

Name update!

Hi Swistle,
I am writing with a name update for our sweet new baby girl. I wrote to you awhile back and sadly, we miscarried shortly after you printed that letter. You and your readers were very helpful, however, and we tossed several of your suggested names around as we were naming this little lady. At the end of the day, we settled on a name that rose to the top of our list over the last several months. We love that it is classic, not super popular (yet?), and has a spunky nickname. So far, it fits her perfectly.

Introducing Vivian “Vivi” Marie! We are over the moon in love!

Thanks again,
Lindsey, Nathan, and proud big brother Eli Dane

Name Updates!

Baby Naming Issue: Does a Cool Name Set Expectations?

24 Replies

Dear Swistle

My name is Amanda Dale and my husband’s name is Niall Aidan. Our last name is Beg-lee. My husband is Irish and I am culturally Jewish. Although we are not currently expecting, I love name searching! Boy’s names come pretty easily to me, and for now my favorites include: Connor, Theo, Brenner (my mom’s maiden name), Miller, Owen, and Declan. Despite my ease at finding suitable boys names, I have found a lot of anxiety in my search for a wonderful girl’s name. A lot of this anxiety seems to stem from what expectations I am placing on my future daughter with the name I choose- let me explain:

The names that I am most drawn to seem to be unisex names, and the reason, I believe, is what I call the “cool” factor. Growing up, I knew girl’s named Brett and Sloane, and they just seemed so ridiculously cool to me! I was never a particularly cool kid, and having a very common name didn’t add to my confidence level. Those names always stood out and have continued to draw me in.

On my “cool” name list include:

Emerson, Brett, Sutton, Logan, Piper, Tristan, Spencer, Wren, Leighton, Rowan,

Despite my obvious preference, I have serious hesitations about using these names. Given that neither I nor my husband were cool kids, I worry that giving my daughter a cool kid name will set expectations she simply won’t meet. I feel that kids with slightly off beat names really need the confidence to own those names, and while we can definitely harbor those feelings in her through parenting, I still worry that it may be too much of a weight to bear. I worry that years of people not knowing her gender will cause her undue grief..

Given these concerns, I find myself searching through and enjoying some old fashioned and more feminine name choices as well, which I feel are more “cute”. Some “cute” names that I have considered include:

Evelyn, Penelope, Madeleine, Eloise, Fiona, Lena, Lila

Despite liking these, I’m not sure I love these choices. Moreover, I’m not sure being “cute” is better than being “cool”! Are there any names you can think of that can help me bridge the gap- the perfect blend of unisex cool with a feminine touch so my daughter can enjoy being whatever she wants to be?

Thanks!

Amanda

Something I notice when I think back on the cool girls in high school is that their names were not necessarily cool: Stephanie, Monica, Lisa. Having a cool name might have further improved their coolness, it’s true—but their coolness seemed quite separate from their names. In some cases, a cool girl made her ordinary name cool by being cool herself: one example is Lynn, who had a Mom Name but forever changed the image of that name for me and probably many others at our school.

I remember some of them were given Cool Nicknames, based on in-jokes or surnames. One cool girl was called Shock (her actual name was Jennifer). A couple others were called by their surnames, which gave them the unisex/boyish/preppy sound. A girl whose name isn’t cool enough can increase the coolness if needed.

To look at the other side, I’m trying to think of the non-cool girls I knew who had cool names. I remember the first Mikayla I met: a new girl who came to the school mid-year. Her “weird name” (it’s hard to imagine it that way now!) was one more strike against her, and my guess is that she would have paid cash money to blend in a little more as a Melissa or a Nicole. The naming climate has changed considerably since then, though, and I wonder if that has considerably changed the way kids feel about other kids’ names. I do know my kids still report to me the “weird names” of other kids, and we’ve had to have discussions about that (“Kids don’t choose their own names; we don’t make fun of people’s names,” “That name is fairly common, it’s just the first time you’ve encountered someone with it,” etc.). It still seems based mostly on exposure: if they know someone with that name, they feel like it’s a normal name.

Another naming-climate issue is that unisex names are more common now. When I was a child, there was Erin/Aaron, some Jamie/Jaime and Cory/Corey; Tracy and Shannon were supposedly unisex but I knew only girls with those names (except for one male Tracy we felt sorry for). Girls who wanted something more unisex generally went the Andrea/Andy route: the feminine name with the boyish nickname. The recent naming situation is quite different: Jaden, Jordan, Avery, Cameron, Taylor, Riley—lots of names where I have to ask my kids if a particular classmate is male or female. A name that would have been startling on someone of the parent’s generation might be perfectly ordinary and non-expectation-setting on someone of the child’s generation.

In fact, we’re hindered in some ways by being The Parents: it’s hard to know which of the names we consider cool (or cute, or professional) will be considered cool by the children and their peers. It can help to imagine our own parents, and whether we think they’d be capable of choosing a name for us that our peers would consider cool.

One good solution might be to choose a name that is cool but also relatively common. Avery, for example, is unisex and strikes me as falling into the Cool category, but it was #12 for girls in 2013. This makes it familiar enough not to stand out in an uncomfortable way, and the number of Averys helps to dilute the associations people have with the name: if you know one cool Avery and one sporty Avery and one academic Avery, it’s harder to have expectations of other holders of the name. More possibilities of this sort: Harper, Taylor, Riley.

Another good solution might be to choose a name that’s cool and unisex but has a common and girlish nickname. Emerson from your list is a perfect example of this: she could easily go by Emmie or Emma if she preferred. Miller from your boy-name list would work well for this too, if you wanted something more daring: Milly/Millie is sweet.

Or you could do the opposite: give her a familiar/traditional girl name, but with a cool/unisex nickname. I recently encountered a Nicole my age who is going by Cole, which is a big change from all the Nickys. A Katherine could go by Kit; a Caroline could go by Rory; a Charlotte could go by Charlie or Chaz or Chip; a Juliette could go by Jet or Jules; an Alexandra could go by Al or Zan. I think this works particularly well with girl names that have boy versions, such as Charlotte/Charles and Alexandra/Alexander: it seems like any of the “boy” nicknames would be available for the girl version.

Another possibility is to use a very cool name, but use it as the middle name and then deliberately put it into rotation as one of her nicknames as she grows up. This gives her the option of using it if she wants to and/or it suits her, or hiding it if she doesn’t and/or it doesn’t.

Or I think it can be easier to pull off an unusual or cool name if there’s a good quick explanation for it. For example, if you used Brenner for a girl, she’d have “It was my grandmother’s maiden name.”

It may also reduce your concerns if you choose a unisex name that is used more often for girls: Emerson is now used mostly for girls, but Spencer and Tristan are used mostly for boys. Piper is used almost exclusively for girls. She’ll need to correct people less often with a name like Wren (48 new baby boys and 332 new baby girls in 2013) than with a name like Logan (12,270 new baby boys and 704 new baby girls in 2013).

When I think of names that seem “too cute,” I think of the ones that seem too lightweight: names chosen for a cute little baby girl that will feel silly or diminishing when she’s a grown woman. I feel nervous about giving examples for a category I just described so negatively, but perhaps it would help if I used one from my own generation: I know a Chrissy who would prefer to have something a little more solid to use now that she’s an adult, and I find it difficult to even use her name: it feels like I’m using an inappropriately affectionate nickname, and it also feels too babyish for her serious nature. Another of my peers has the given name Jenni: that’s another that seems too cute to me.

The names on your cute list don’t seem cute to me at all. Evelyn, Madeleine, Eloise, Lena—these are good solid traditional choices, nice vintage revivals. Penelope and Eloise and Fiona have a little more whimsy to them, but they’re still serious choices with good long histories. If your list were Maddi, Ellie, Evie, Fifi, and Pip, that would fit better with what I think of as “Maybe these might be too cute” list.

The big question here, though, is whether a cool name puts too much pressure on the child to be cool. I’ve been thinking about that since you wrote, and I find I can go either way on that. My first answer is yes: I do think it’s possible to burden a child with an overly cool name. I think a child can feel pressure from her name, and I think parents can inadvertently or deliberately put their own issues and expectations into a name. But if the parents like cool names, does that mean they shouldn’t use those names, just because it could be an issue? That’s where I start to come down on the other side of things.

I think my main advice is to see if you can figure out what style of name is your favorite, separate from the image of the names. That could be a nearly impossible task, since the image of a name is a huge part of whether it’s to our tastes or not. But what I mean is, see if you can separate “a cool name” from an image of “a cool high school girl.” See if it helps to do the same exercise I did: think of the cool girls you knew, and see if all of them had cool names or only some; think of the girls you knew with cool names, and see if all of them were cool or just some. Or when you’re out and about, mentally try the names on people of all ages and types to see how well you like the names with those people attached to them instead of to the cool girls from your memory. Picture various types of kids with various types of names; picture people your own age and your parents’ age with various types of names. Sit at the mall and watch people go by, and try the names on for size. Break the name from your image of the name as much as you can, and see if you still like the name.

But maybe you will do these exercises and realize that you like cool names because you like cool names: you DON’T feel like they’ll change your child’s temperament and you don’t even want them to, you DON’T mind if she doesn’t end up being cool, you’re NOT trying to correct for your own childhood experience—you just like cool names because you like them and they’re your preferred naming style. In that case, I would treat them as I’d treat any other name category: it’s considerate to build in some flexibility if possible (a middle name, a nickname, etc.), but as long as you’ve taken into account the things I can see you’re taking into account already (wondering how the names will fit on a variety of people, wondering how the child might feel about the name), it’s okay to go with the ones YOU like best. That’s what we all end up doing, whether our favorites are Margaret or Spencer or Chrissy. Then our children either like their names or don’t, just as we like our names or don’t, and they modify them if they need to—but most don’t need to.

I think the reason I had trouble deciding on this issue is that I feel one way up to a point, and then I feel a different way after that. I DO think it’s important to be aware of the seriousness of naming a child, and all the issues that can go along with choosing a name. I DO think it’s important to consider how the child might feel about the name, and what the consequences of each name might be. I DO think it’s important to separate names from our images and expectations of those names, so that we don’t accidentally feel as if giving a child a willowy, pretty, confident name will make her turn out willowy and pretty and confident. I DO think it’s important to imagine the names on plump plain receptionists as well as on popular pretty high school students.

But I ALSO think that we can only take this so far. We don’t know what the child will be like, and thinking about it a lot won’t tell us more. We don’t know how ANY name might fit the child, or how those names will be perceived as the child grows up. It would be silly to throw away a name we loved “in case it doesn’t fit,” and then have the child turn out to be a PERFECT fit for that name. And I think it’s possible to worry more than we need to: it is, in the end, just a name. For MANY names on the spectrum, the name is a stretchy garment that fits a great variety of wearers.

Name update:

Hi there,
Almost 6 whole years ago I wrote to you asking if a cool name sets expectations for a child. I wanted to give you an update! Since then I have had 3 boys. The first is 3, Charles “Charlie” Nolan. The other two are 2 month old twins- Henry Ethan and Graham Brenner. Funnily enough none of the names I liked back then were names we even considered using. While I still gravitate towards what I would consider “cool” names, when I actually had to name a real child some of those names felt totally wrong for my own children. Plus my husband seemed to only like names that you would find in the English monarchy (we almost ended up with Charles, Henry and George!).

Hope all is well during this crazy time
Amanda

Baby Naming Issue: Trends and Time-Stamps

56 Replies

Dear Swistle,

Please help! My husband and I our expecting our first child in late August. We don’t know the gender, but have easily settled on a couple of options for a girl’s name and we thought we had settled on a boy’s name ages ago, but now we’re facing the oldest naming dilemma in the book: We’ve had the perfect name for us in mind for years—Silas—and now it’s getting really popular.

Popularity per se doesn’t bother me, but excessive trendiness and date-stamping do, so what I’m hoping you and your excellent readers can help me figure out is how our chosen name reads and how trendy/date-stamped it’s going to feel decades from now.

Years ago, we decided on Silas for a hypothetical future son because the Biblical association was very meaningful for us; because it has a long history; because it’s not aggressively masculine but still distinctively a man’s name; and because it’s relatively easy to spell and pronounce. (We have a hyphenated last name that starts with a one-syllable word that sounds like Rau. The second word is two syllables and starts with an H. Neither is spelled or pronounced intuitively.) Finally, we liked that the name was familiar but not over-saturated.

But, of course, in the past seven years since we settled on Silas, the name has gone from being ranked in the mid-300s on the SAA list with 937 births nationally to being ranked #116 with 3367 births. In the part of the US where we live, it’s even more popular: #72, #78, and #70 our tri-state region. I don’t yet know of any Silases in our particular community, and I wouldn’t even mind if I did know of a few others unless they were in our immediate circle of friends or lived on our block. I had even anticipated that the name would become more popular for a variety of reasons; what I did not anticipate was Duck Dynasty, where Uncle Si is a featured character and has given the name a bump I wasn’t expecting (and an association that I don’t really care for.)

I should also say that, even without DD, we weren’t planning on calling him “Si” regularly. Although we wouldn’t be opposed to his name being shortened for ease occasionally, we don’t love the nickname. (Although that’s also a question we have: Some names—even two-syllable names—seem to get shortened automatically. Will that happen with Silas? Will we become those parents who spend decades insisting that Chris is really Christopher?)

Again, it’s not the popularity I mind—it’s the type of popularity or what that popularity will communicate to others. I read (or have read) Silas as being part of a trend of slightly antique-sounding Biblical names—like Ezra, Levi, or Micah—and I’m okay with that; I also saw it as connected to those gentler gentlemanly s-ending names, like Miles, Lucas, etc. But with the sharpness of its rise in popularity, I’m worried that I’m reading Silas wrong or that there are other readings of the name that I don’t see. Specifically, I’m worried about Duck Dynasty becoming its major and defining association. My husband thinks that it’s Biblical roots and long history trump Duck Dynasty, as well as any other trendiness it might be gathering and will keep it from feeling too painfully of-its-moment in the decades ahead. (We don’t want to it become the 2010s equivalent of what Willard was in the 1910s or Chad was in the 1970s.) We would really appreciate thoughts—and even some consensus—from you and your readers. Our two big questions are:

1) Do people associate the name Silas with Duck Dynasty (and, if not, what are their associations/sense of the name)?

2) Will Silas’s popularity now make it seem dated and passé in the future or does its origin and history give it more longevity?

We’re feeling short on other finalist names at the moment—this one has been “The Name” for so long—but our next top contender is Whitman (although that has its own set of issues for us). We also like Everett, Wesley, and August. We like but have had to rule out Theo, Isaac, Lincoln, Henry, and Emil. If this baby is a girl, her name will likely be Pearl, June, or Clara. We don’t care for Cyrus, which a few people have suggested as an alternative.

We would be so grateful to hear your thoughts on this and insights from your commentators, too and maybe also a poll about the Silas/Duck Dynasty connection (or just about Silas’s trendiness in general.)

Many thanks!

The RHs

The trouble with questions about the future of a name is that none of us can answer them. We can all guess, and some of our guesses will be right, but we’ll have to wait and see who wins—and by then those babies we helped name will be grown and worrying about THEIR babies’ names.

Back when I first heard the name Braden, I didn’t guess that it would become a “one of the -adens” name. When I first heard the name Noah on a little boy, I would never have predicted it would be #1 in 2013. I remember thinking Olivia was a very daring choice (I had a very strong association with Olivia from Sesame Street), and I remember thinking Jack/Max/Sam sounded extremely fresh and new. I know how I felt about those names back then, and I know how I feel about them now, but I STILL don’t know how I’ll feel about them in another fifteen or twenty years.

“How a name will feel later on” is one of the hardest categories to predict. All the parents choosing the name Jennifer as a distinctive and unusual name had no idea we’d be looking back on it mostly for its abundance. Names chosen for their youth and glamor back in the 1940s now seem like Grandparent Names. I can look at the chart of Silas and try to guess if its popularity line will continue, but trying to guess the image people will have of the name in 30 years is like trying to guess how our fashions will look to people in 30 years: some of our clothes will seem like good choices, most will seem like boring and unfashionable choices, and some will have our children and grandchildren wheezing with laughter and unable to BELIEVE that ANYONE would EVER wear such a thing.

There is reassurance here, though: when there’s no way to know, there’s no need to spend too much time worrying about it. We can try to choose our current clothes based on what our grandchildren will think of them later, but I’d say that’s a waste of time and a shaky goal. We do want to do our best to choose names that will wear well over time, and we can apply some good solid sense to that process, but most of it is still guesswork: we can’t know how date-stamped a name will seem later, when we’re still in the middle of its fashionable time. Maybe in 30 years the name Silas will seem like “part of that whole Hipster Biblical trend,” or maybe Duck Dynasty will have made it seem like a hunting/beards kind of name, or maybe we’re on the verge of an -as trend and THAT will be its most identifying factor, or maybe it’ll be one of those satisfying choices that is in fashion at the time but never baffles/amuses anyone later on. None of us want to look FOOLISH with our choices, but I don’t think the name Silas will make you look foolish.

I think it helps to think about how few names HAVE ended up looking foolish. I can think of many that seem linked to a certain generation, but very few that are therefore embarrassing: names just naturally come in and out of fashion like that, and there’s no avoiding it. The name Henry was once extremely common, then became old-mannish, then became startlingly fresh and new, then became the kind of name where parents wonder if it’s too common to use—and soon, as all those baby Henrys grow up and become grandparents, the name will once again seem old-mannish, because all the HENRYS will be old mannish. It’s the life-cycle of names.

I don’t know if Silas will be shortened to Si/Sy or not, but I don’t think you’ll have to fight it the way you would have had to in the 1970s if you wanted a Christopher-not-Chris. Now is a good time to use a name without a nickname,: some kids use them, but many choose not to. A Jonathan can easily be a Jonathan, not a Jon or a Jonny; a James can easily be a James, not a Jim or Jimmy or Jamie. But whether an individual person is called by a nickname depends on a number of factors, including whether the person in question likes it or not. The name Silas doesn’t seem like an automatic-shorten name to me: I can see people using Si/Sy, but it’s not as intuitive a combination as Jackson/Jack or Samuel/Sam.

You mention the current hipness of biblical names, and that’s one that interests me, too. I remember thinking of biblical names in two categories: the ones that were so common they didn’t even seem like biblical names (Matthew, David, Andrew) and the ones that were way too biblical to use for an actual child (Ezekiel, Ezra, Moses)—and THAT sure changed. And now we have a new question to answer: how will these names look to us when we’re looking back on them? Will we see them as hip trendy names, or will they keep their biblical/ancient reputations? Or both? Or perhaps we won’t we give it much thought at all, because all those names will just feel like the regular names people have.

For me, the primary association with Silas is the Biblical Name category. I might wonder if the parents’ motivation was primarily fashion or primarily faith, but that’s the association for me. I don’t think of Duck Dynasty—but then, I haven’t seen the show, and that makes a huge difference. I agree with your husband, though, that the long history of the name is very likely to trump any short-term association. Even if, briefly, the name is associated with a television show, I don’t think that’s going to STICK the way thousands of years of usage will.

It may very well seem a little dated later on, however. Most names do. Even classics go in and out of style: remember when the name William felt classic but not at all fashionable? Very few names escape this, just as very few clothing items stay in fashion decade after decade: there’s a natural tendency to get tired of something and move on to the next thing. The difference is between the things we come back to again and again, and the things we feel grateful we weren’t photographed wearing. With a name like Silas, history shows us that the name goes in and out of style but we keep pulling it out for re-use; that’s a very good sign for its future.

Let’s cut-and-paste your two main questions here again, to remind commenters:

1) Do people associate the name Silas with Duck Dynasty (and, if not, what are their associations/sense of the name)?

2) Will Silas’s popularity now make it seem dated and passé in the future or does its origin and history give it more longevity?

And let’s have a poll to help us answer the first question:

[yop_poll id=”56″]

Baby Girl Rhymes-with-Kerchew, Sister to Josephine Mae (Joey)

35 Replies

Dear Swistle,
I am due in September with a baby girl. We have a 4-year-old daughter named Josephine Mae who often goes by Joey. Our last name is French and hard to pronounce and rhymes with ker-CHEW and starts with a “ja” sound. My name is very unusual but simple and my husband’s name is fairly common. Because the last name is tricky, we’d like to find a name for our daughter that people are familiar with but isn’t ultra-popular, either. We lean towards classic/old-lady names. We like either Pearl or Claire for a middle name. This will be our last child. If she’d been a boy, we would have likely named him August George.

Names we both like:
Greta
Matilda (nn: Tilly, Millie, Molly) – this name would honor my grandmother
Sadie
Clara

Maybes:
Delia
Caroline (nn: Cal)
Edith (nn: Edie) – meaningful family connection
Hilda – would honor my husband’s grandmother
Ruby

Names I like:
Beatrice
Louise
Luisa
Nell

Names my husband likes:
Mariana
Priscilla
Ida

Names we like but probably won’t use for various reasons:
Eliza (an Eliza and an Elizabeth already in the family)
Henrietta (close friend with new baby with same name)
Emmaline (close friend Emily; Emma is so popular)
Clementine (too spunky?)
Avelina (pronunciation an issue)
Adelaide (friend’s baby’s name)
Juniper (too much alliteration with Josephine and our last name)

We’d love your (and your readers’) thoughts and suggestions!
Thanks much,
Nameless in Seattle

With the sibling name Josephine, I’d be inclined to go with the long version of Greta and then use Greta as the nickname. Josephine (Joey) and Margaret (Greta).

Sadie is more difficult, because it’s a nickname for Sarah but I’m not sure that’s well-known, and because I don’t think Josephine and Sarah go together better than Josephine and Sadie; in fact, I much prefer Josephine and Sadie. But Sadie still seems nicknamey to me with Josephine. Joey and Sadie are very cute together.

Clara is an excellent style fit, but it bothers me just a little bit that it doesn’t have a nickname similar to Joey. (But if you were writing to say it was your favorite and you were concerned that it didn’t have a nickname, I’d be brushing that concern aside.)

If Margaret/Greta is not an appealing option, then my top choice on your list is Matilda. I like that it’s similar in length to Josephine, with similar nickname options; I also like that it would honor your grandmother (and with the -ilda ending, it comes close to also honoring your husband’s grandmother Hilda). I immediately want to use a short middle name starting with J, to coordinate with Mae. Josephine Mae and Matilda Joy, for example: each girl’s middle name would start with the first two letters of the other girl’s first name. But that’s just playing around for fun.

I might also take Delia from your Maybe list and make it into Cordelia, which gives you Cory as a nickname option. Josephine and Cordelia; Joey and Cory.

Because you like Henrietta but can’t use it, I suggest Harriet. Josephine and Harriet; Joey and Hattie.

Because you like Eliza but can’t use it, I suggest Eloise. Josephine and Eloise. I’m not sure what to suggest as the nickname for Eloise. Ellie, I suppose. Or I’ve seen Lola suggested, but it doesn’t feel natural to me; perhaps it WOULD come about naturally, though, or perhaps another nickname would instead. (This is how I feel about Clara as well: perhaps she would be called Clary, or perhaps something else would develop on its own.)

Because you like August for a boy, I suggest Augusta. Josephine and Augusta; Joey and Gussie.

Edith on your list makes me think of Meredith. Josephine and Meredith; Joey and Merrie. But that may ruin the family connection element.

Name update!

Dear Swistle,
Thank you so much to you and your readers for your input on our naming debate! We loved reading through the comments and getting opinions from people who were not our family and friends.

Our second daughter was born on September 25th and we named her Matilda Louise. We’ve been calling her Tilly and Tilly Lou. Matilda honors grandmothers on both sides of the family and Louise honors my husband’s great-aunt. Big sister Josephine is in love, as are we.

Thanks again!

Baby Girl or Boy Hussey, Sibling to Henry James and Nora Isabel

25 Replies

Hi! We are expecting a baby any time now actually.. Due date is July 17th. My husband has two children/I have two step children. They are Henry James and Nora Isabel. Last name is Hussey. We seem to be leaning towards something traditional in keeping with the other children’s name.

I don’t really like names that are easily converted to a nickname, and especially not one where the assumption from the start is that we have named the child one thing with the intent of just going by a nickname anyway. Of course I understand people’s tendency to shorten names anyway.

We don’t know if we are having a girl or boy so have chosen both. My husband is quite happy with the choice of Elliot for a son. I was too until I made the big mistake of sharing this with a friend who immediately said “Elliot smelliot”. Now that has turned me off. I really like Nate. My concern is if he’ll be asked constantly when he’s older whether that’s short for something. We are thinking middle name of James after my husband & his grandfather. I think it’s fine if two siblings share a middle name. Correct? Brody is another consideration but then we wouldn’t go for James as a middle name (BJ!). Also, do you think Elliot James is just asking for the nickname EJ? I’d like a name that won’t be considered geeky as he gets older. I like Aidan but my husband does not. I’m mentioning this because neither of us in general like the trend towards Irish names, especially oddly spelled (ie Colm)

For a girl we really like Olivia. My concern is that it seems to be super popular right now. Will there be 10 Olivia’s in her class? We haven’t talked much about middle names but I like Hope since that’s the meaning of my first name (so giving her my name in a way that’s different than directly giving her my name). I also like Leia (pronounced like the princess from Star Wars) but we think she’ll get asked to Spell her name a lot. Or, get her name mispronounced a lot. Other considerations are Sophia (again really popular) and some that I like but I’m not sure my husband does such as Lola, Violet, Parker and Vivian.

I also want to give the child my last name (Bonamin) as a 2nd middle name since I have not changed my last name and feel it would be a nice connection. However, I don’t expect them to use it all the time, especially in general conversation.

Any advice?!

Thanks!

I feel a little mad at your friend who said Elliot-Smelliot. For one thing, it feels to me as if we could do that to many names if we wanted to: Liam-PEEum or Lucas-PUKE-as or Emma-PHLEGM-a or Abigail-FLABigail or Justin-PUStin or Nicholas-DICKolas or Richard-BITCHard or Kristen-PISSten. “Being able to find an unappealing word that rhymes with one of the syllables” is not a reason to strike a name off the list, and it seems like people find rhymes like that when they want to spoil a name for someone else. On the other hand, I understand the impulse: I myself like to warn people if a potential issue jumps out at me, and would myself want to think ahead of time about situations such as Cooper-POOPer.

If it is helpful to have one person’s experience, I took care of an Elliot when I worked in a daycare, and “Ell rhymes with smell” didn’t come up or cross my mind. Granted, I am not speaking from an elementary-school point of view here: infants don’t taunt each other much with name-calling. But still: with the current popularity of Ell- names, if it’s an issue for him at least he’ll be in good company. He and Ellie-Smelly and Isa-SMELL-a can eat lunch together.

The name Elliot seems like a beautiful style match with Henry and Nora. The name Brody feels like less of a good fit: modern and surnamey with the two vintage-appeal classics.

I don’t think a Nate would find it a constant overwhelming hassle to be asked if his name was short for something. It would probably come up about as often as I have to clarify that my name ends in -en not -in—which is to say, regularly but not overly often, and not in an way that makes me wish I’d been named something else. Still, Nate seems a little abrupt and nicknamey to me with the sibling names.

Do you like the name Oliver? It feels similar to Elliot. Oliver Hussey; Henry, Nora, and Oliver.

Or the two names I always think of with Elliot are Everett and Emmett. Everett Hussey; Henry, Nora, and Everett. Emmett Hussey; Henry, Nora, and Emmett.

Or Simon would be nice. Simon Hussey; Henry, Nora, and Simon.

Or Ethan. Ethan Hussey; Henry, Nora, and Ethan.

Or I like the name John and I think it gets overlooked. John Hussey; Henry, Nora, and John.

I think it’s fine and even sweet for two siblings to share the same middle name. If Henry is old enough to be asked, I think it would be a good idea to ask him how he feels about it. It could be something that makes him feel more connected to the baby, or it may feel as if the baby is taking something that used to be his.

On a recent post, someone made a comment that assumed that someone with a J- middle name would be called by their first two initials, but it’s not something I’ve encountered. The resulting discussion indicated that it may be a regional thing or a generational thing. I don’t think it would just happen, unless you have a family that is known to do it or you live somewhere where it’s automatically done. Is Henry ever called H.J.? Does anyone else in your circle of friends and family have a J- middle name and a resulting _.J. nickname that came about naturally (rather than because the parents chose it as the nickname)?

There won’t be ten Olivias in her classroom, but the name Olivia has been in the Top 10 since 2001 so you’ll likely encounter a fair number of them over the years. The current usage is at .9562% of new baby girls. This means that approximately 1 new baby girl out of 100 is named Olivia, nationally-speaking. If a classroom has roughly 30 children in it and roughly half of them are girls, this means there is a national average of roughly 1 Olivia per 6-7 classrooms. Regional differences and random chance make it not unlikely that some years she will go by Olivia H. or Olivia Hope, but that seems like it would be fine.

If you’d like something with a similar sound but less popularity, I suggest Lydia.

I notice a lot of v-sounds on your girl list (Olivia, Vivian, Violet), so I’d also suggest Eva, Evelyn, Genevieve, and Silvia.

Baby Girl Dur, Sister to Sebastian

30 Replies

Dear Swistle,

I love lurking on your baby names blog and am hoping you and your astute readers can help me come up with a name for Baby #2. We just found out she’s a girl, and she is due in mid-November.

Our last name is a real challenge! It’s a one-syllable name that starts with D and rhymes with “fur” (as in animal fur). Because of our clunky last name, I think the first name needs to have a minimum of two syllables, and preferably more, to balance it out. The other problem is that many names become words when attached to our last name (think Bender (Ben), Leader (Lee), Colander (Colin), etc.). This is a bigger problem with boy names than with girl names, but happens with certain girl names, too (Cora becomes “corridor” in some accents, for instance).

Our firstborn is a boy named Sebastian. Things we particularly love about his name: three syllables, doesn’t naturally nickname to anything that sounds weird with our last name, is an “old” name with some historical weight, and has pronunciations in multiple languages so it should travel well with him in the future, hopefully. Oh, and we like the literary association with Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night (my husband and I are both big readers, and I love theatre).

If this baby had turned out to be a boy, we were kicking around the names Julian, Byron, Beckett, and August. We do hope to have three children ultimately, so these are still on the table for a potential future boy.

As for a name for this baby girl, we both love the name Joanna. It has been a long-time favorite of mine, for many of the same reasons I love Sebastian (literary/theatre associations, a name with a long history, will travel well with its multiple pronunciations). And my husband is enamored of the idea of calling her Joey or Jo-Jo as a nickname. He likes girl names with a masculine nickname. However, it dawned on me the other day that one of the names we always joke we can never name a baby is Jan(n)a, because she’d be Jana Dur…do you hear it? Is Joanna Dur just too close to the same association as Jana Dur? I’d love to think that extra syllable and the O nixes the broom closet association for anyone but overly-critical me, but now that I’ve heard it I can’t unhear it. My husband is also concerned that people would call her “Jo [Dur],” which sounds an awful lot like “Joe Dirt”, the title of a David Spade comedy circa 2001. Obviously that wouldn’t be an association for her peers, but it probably is for many of ours (and it’s not a positive association, in my opinion). What do you think? Do we need to give up on the idea of using Joanna? We really do love it…

Our runner-up name (which is actually starting to become more appealing in my eyes) is Louisa. I like it for most of the same reasons I like Joanna. I have also always liked the name Lula, and think it could work as a nickname for Louisa. My husband also likes the name a lot, and likes that she could be Lou or Lula. (I do realize that Lou [Dur] is “looter,” but that doesn’t bother me, mostly because how often do you actually hear someone being referred to as a “looter”? It’s just not a common word, I don’t think.) I wonder if Louisa is just going to be super polarizing, though. I definitely don’t need everyone in the world to love or even like my child’s name. Sebastian has turned out to be pretty polarizing, with plenty of people telling me how much they adore it, but others–typically relatives from the older generation–struggling with it. I think Louisa is lovely, and if it’s going to get a mixed reaction similar to Sebastian, I am fine with that. But is Louisa a Bertha/Gladys/Lois? (In other words, is it an old lady name that is still firmly an old lady name and that’s going to get primarily a “Why did you do that to your child?!” reaction? I am not sure I want to be that much of a trailblazer!)

Here are some other names we seriously considered but ultimately vetoed:
Rosemary (we both love this one, but my husband doesn’t think he can get past the Rosemary’s Baby association; we are still very seriously considering it for the middle name slot)
Charlotte (just can’t handle how popular it has become in our region–our son’s name has turned out to be more popular than I would have liked, and Charlotte is way more popular than Sebastian around here; this is also a front-runner for the middle name slot, though)
Layla (husband likes this one a lot, but it is such a different style from Sebastian, and is a bit too trendy)
Wilhelmina (husband thinks it’s a mouthful, but does like the nickname Minnie)
Rosanna (seems like it should be a perfect mash-up of Rosemary and Joanna, but I just don’t like it for some reason…maybe the Toto song ruined it for me)

So, thoughts on Joanna and/or Louisa? We still have approximately 20 weeks to go, so I’m also open to other suggestions of long names with the potential for masculine/androgynous/peppy nicknames.

Thanks so much!

Ashley

I can definitely say Joanna Dur so that it has a hint of janitor about it, but I have to deliberately say it to the wrong rhythm to get there: jo-ANNa-dur instead of joANna (*slight pause*) DUR. And even doing that, it still only sort of sounds like it. Plus, as I understand it after being corrected embarrassingly in conversation by someone who held that job, the job title is now custodian (though that helps little if the word janitor is still in regular usage).

If the name were Jo Dur, the movie Joe Dirt would never have come to my mind—but then, I don’t have any memory of hearing about that movie, though I must have at the time.

I don’t think Louisa is a Bertha/Gladys/Lois. The names Louise and Louisa have come up many times around here, but I just checked the archives and Bertha/Gladys never have. (I couldn’t check Lois because the search results included all the Eloises.)

Now let’s check the Social Security Administration’s data base to see the current usage of the names. Here’s how many new baby girls were given each name in 2013:

Louisa: 241
Louise: 196

Bertha: 26
Gladys: 69
Lois: 78

So I wouldn’t put Louisa in the same category as Bertha/Gladys/Lois—and the number of times I’ve seen it on other parents’ lists makes me think we may see more of it soon.

On the other hand, neither would I put it in the same category as Sebastian: in 2013 there were 7,495 new baby boys named Sebastian. Louisa hasn’t been in the Top 1000 since 1969, but the name Sebastian is in the Top 50 now: #45 in 2013. Girl names of similar popularity to Sebastian would be Arianna, Scarlett, Claire, and Alexis by ranking, or Evelyn, Natalie, and Grace by birth numbers. Evelyn seems like the best name of the group for comparison: it’s a popular vintage revival that has raised a few grandparent eyebrows.

Let’s look at the name Joanna, while we’re at it. It was #342 in 2013; 938 new baby girls were given the name; another 557 were named Johanna (Johanna was #531).

The name Josephine is more similar to Sebastian: it was #160 in 2013, given to 1,996 new baby girls. And Josephine would be a very nice option, if it meets the other preferences. Sebastian and Josephine seems like excellent sibling names to me, and Josephine eliminates the janitor issue if not the Joe Dirt issue. You’d still have the nicknames Jo and Joey, and you’d add Josie and Fina.

Similar to Louisa is Eloise: it was #338 in 2013; 944 new baby girls were given the name.

Or Eliza: it was #200; 1603 new baby girls were given the name.

I think all this discussion makes it look as if I’m leaning away from Joanna/Louisa, but actually I think both are great names and great candidates for this baby, and I don’t think any of the issues raised are enough to rule them out. But I feel from your letter as if you might come down on a different side of that decision.

We recently made a list of longer girl names with short boyish nicknames for another post, so I’m going to copy that list here:

Antonia/Toni
Augusta/Gus/Gussie
Bernadette/Bennie/Bernie
Calista/Cal
Colette/Cole
Danica/Danny
Francesca/Frankie/Frank
Georgia/Georgie/George
Georgianna/Georgie/George
Josephine/Jo
Katherine/Kit
Louisa/Lou
Philomena/Phil
Matilda/Mattie
Theodora/Theo
Thomasina/Tommie/Tom
Veronica/Ronnie/Ron
Winifred/Freddie/Fred

Cole Dur turns to Colder, Danny is getting uncomfortably close to Dander, Theo Dur turns into Theodore—but after that I start to feel like I’m reaching. For example, I suppose Mattie could turn into Matt and then Matt Dur could sound like Matter; I suppose Phil Dur might sound like filter, but not much teasing potential there.

Name update!

Hi Swistle,

I wanted to thank you and your readers for your help in naming our baby girl. Louisa Hazel was born on November 8th. We settled on the name Louisa shortly after writing to you. I think I just needed to hear from others that our choice wasn’t too unusual. Her name suits her perfectly, and when we announced her name reactions from friends and family were overwhelmingly positive. So far we just call her Louisa, although her big brother calls her “Baby Weeza,” so that has caught on as well. Thanks again for the help!

Ashley

P.S.-A picture is attached.

Baby Girl or Boy Welch, Sibling to Lance and Genevieve

25 Replies

Christie writes:

Dear Swistle,
I am in desperate need of your help. My third child is due at the end of September. We are not finding out the gender and I think that is part of the naming issue. Sibling names are Lance Martin and Genevieve Karina. Last name is Welch, pronounced like the grape juice.

Our naming rules:
1. I don’t want anything in the top 100. I know you don’t see this as an issue but my first name is Christie and I hated going by Christie P during elementary school.
2. I don’t like “made up” names. I prefer not as popular names but ones that people will know how to pronounce and have more of a classic sound.
3. I’m indifferent on nicknames. We call Lance and Genevieve by their full names.

For middle names we use family names. If the baby is a boy it will be Bradford or Christopher. If the baby is a girl I would like to use some variation of Anne. My current favorite is Analee or Annelise. For several reasons we will not use any of these as a first name.

Here is our list of possibilities but I don’t love any of them and some break our rules.
Girl-Scarlett, Kinley, Bianca, Colette, Lydia
Boy-Griffin, Donovan, Maxwell, Preston, Harrison

I am hoping you can give me feedback on these as well as new options. I’m finding it difficult to find a name that fits with the other two. I want to hear a name and just love it like I did with the other two but so far I have exhausted the internet and don’t love anything!

Thank you!

Bianca stands out to me from your girl-name list. Unusual, lovely, and a great sister name with Genevieve. My inclination would be to stop right there. Kinley feels too modern/surnamey with Genevieve; Scarlett too feels like a very different style than the other names, and I don’t like the way it runs together with the surname to make a twelch sound. A few more possibilities to consider:

Cecily Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Cecily
Clarissa Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Clarissa
Claudia Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Claudia
Cordelia Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Cordelia
Elena Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Elena
Eliza Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Eliza
Eloise Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Eloise
Francesca Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Francesca
Emmeline Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Emmeline
Philippa Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Philippa
Sabrina Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Sabrina
Simone Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Simone

For her middle name, I would steer you away from Analee: those first four letters followed by the -ly sound seem like a poor combination. Doubling the N or using the double name Anna Lee would help considerably, though I’d prefer to avoid the whole issue and use a different version of Anne.

On your boy-name list, I’d cross off Maxwell for the echoed “well” sound with the surname. Harrison is my favorite, but it feels quite long as a brother name for Lance. I think I would go for something similar but a little shorter, such as Harris or Davis—though I’m not crazy about the way a soft -s at the end of the first name leads to a swelchy sound with the surname. Here are some more possibilities to consider:

Dane Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Dane
Dean Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Dean
Edmund Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Edmund
Emmett Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Emmett
Everett Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Everett
Hugo Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Hugo
Keane Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Keane
Keaton Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Keaton
Milo Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Milo
Reid Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Reid
Ruben Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Ruben
Simon Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Simon
Tobin Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Tobin
Turner Welch; Lance, Genevieve, and Turner

Baby Girl Wells: Isobel?

24 Replies

Anne writes:

Hi Swistle,

I am a first time mom expecting the arrival of a baby girl on October 2nd. We have been thinking of names without really falling in love, but have finally agreed on one we both really like: Isobel.

I love the spelling, as we both have Scottish heritage and I spent a fondly remembered semester in Scotland during college. Here is my concern, our last name is Wells. Is this too rhymey? Should I not worry because she would likely be called Izzy?

Other names we have considered are Zelda (the name of my paternal grandmother, also a bit rhymey), Martha, Abigail (I don’t love it enough to overcome the popularity factor), and Ivy (which I love, but was the first name of my husband’s abusive, alcoholic grandfather).

So, could Isobel Wells be given the green light with the right middle name? Help! I need some reassurance that our daughter’s name won’t sound like it came from a Dr. Suess book!

Thank you for your help!

Isobel Wells has a slightly rhymey sound to me, but nothing in the Dr. Seuss range. I would be inclined to advise you to go ahead and use it, except that many -bel/-bella names end up going by Bella, and I am not as fond of the sound of Bella Wells. Perhaps the surname would be enough to prevent that nickname and she WOULD always be Izzy, but it’s hard to know what will happen with nicknames.

I am also alerted by your sentence about not loving Abigail enough to overcome the popularity factor. The name Isobel/Isabelle/Isabella was a bit of a popularity phenomenon, running up the charts so quickly it caught the notice even of people not interested in baby names. I think it’s likely that your statement about Abigail tells us that you DO love the name Isobel enough to overcome the popularity factor, but thought I should mention it just in case. Searching for Isobel in the Social Security Administration’s data base would bring up the misleading information that it was not in the Top 1000, which doesn’t give a good indication of how popular the name FEELS with Isabella in the Top 10 for the last decade. The other names on your list show me that in general you’d prefer an uncommon name.

I wonder if Isadora would be a better fit. It’s quite uncommon; it has the nickname Izzy; there are no rhyminess issues. Isadora Wells.

Or Imogen, with the nickname Immy.

Zelda Wells also passes the Dr. Seuss test for me, and it avoid the issues with the nickname Bella. I like that it’s a family name. My only hesitation would be the popular Zelda video game series, but it’s a cool association rather than a negative one.

It’s too bad about Ivy. Do you like Iris or Ida or Irene or Eileen? Or perhaps something like Genevieve with the nickname Evie.

Would you want to revisit the idea of Martha? I notice it’s the only name on your list without an issue after it in parentheses. Martha Wells has no rhyminess at all, and the name Martha is quite uncommon at #803 in 2013.

[Edited to add:] Or would you like Ruth? I’ve encountered two little girls named Ruth over the last few years and it struck me very positively. Both of them often go by Ruthie. Ruth Wells, Ruthie Wells.