Monthly Archives: February 2018

Baby Naming Issue: Surnames and Family Naming Traditions

48 Replies

Dear Swistle,

I read your blog religiously and with the recents posts involving mother’s last name issues and feelings of resentment/pressure surrounding names, I decided it was time to write you myself. My situation is a two part question. I will try to be brief but I have a feeling it’s going to be long so feel free to cut it down if necessary!

I am currently pregnant (due in April) with our second child, a girl. We have a two year old son named James Reave (spelled differently). He goes by James exclusively and is named for my dad. His middle name is my husband’s beloved grandmother’s maiden name. I love his name and am happy to have honored the people we did. The resentment sets in when I start to think about his last name. I did not change my last name upon marrying and as I am the last member of my family to carry the name, I have particularly strong feelings about it. I always secretly imagined my husband taking my name and my children carrying it on, and though I did mention this desire occasionally, it was never seriously discussed as I think my husband and I both realized we weren’t willing to deal with the fall-out that would inevitably occur if we broached the subject with our families. Looking back, I wish I had cared less about what others thought and had had the courage to push for a real discussion on the matter. We contemplated giving our son my last name as a second middle name, but were hesitant to saddle him with such a long and clunky name. When it came time to fill out the birth certificate paperwork, I was too distracted to care much one way or the other and it wasn’t included. We almost gave him my last name as his only middle name but because we were naming him after my dad, it seemed strange for him to have my dad’s exact name with my husband’s last just tacked on the end. Hyphenating would have been the ideal compromise but both of our names are long and cumbersome and it would have made for a 20 letter last name. My last name also sadly doesn’t make for a desirable first name. I thought that I would just move on from this but as I begin to register him for activities and preschool, I am constantly reminded that we don’t share a name and it makes me sad. I am tempted to take my husband’s name but I feel like I’m giving up some of my identity and there is also the unfortunate issue of my name sounding terrible with his. My question is, should we at this point legally change our son’s name to include my maiden name as his second middle name? Do you know how much of a hassle that is at this point? Is there another solution I haven’t considered? I had thought that perhaps if we had another son we would just give him my last name as his middle but we are having a girl instead and it’s just not the name I envision for my daughter. Which brings me to my next quandary.

Ironically, in light of the conundrum surrounding my last name, my mother’s family has a matriarchal tradition of naming each first girl after her mother, Sarah. Although I go by my middle name, my first name is Sarah. My mother, grandmother, and great grandmother were all Sarah and the line of Sarahs continues further back still with a couple of all male generations mixed in. For as long as I can remember, my future daughter has always been referred to as Sarah by everyone in my family, as if there were no other option. It’s only now that we’re expecting a girl (who will almost certainly be our last child) that I have come to realize that we actually do have a choice in the matter. I’m torn because I love the idea of continuing this tradition that makes me feel connected to my mother’s family but on the other hand, I feel like I’m giving up the opportunity to pick my only daughter’s name. Sarah is a fine name but feels slightly plain and overused to me and as it is my mom’s name, it seems a bit strange for both of my children to be called the same names as my parents. I realize we could move Sarah to the middle name position, but that seems to water down the tradition somewhat. We have considered naming her Sarah and calling her Sadie, but we’re just not sure Sadie feels quite right. Where we seem to have landed for the moment is to name her Sarah but call her by a middle name of our choosing. My hesitation with this of course is the hassle that comes with being named one thing and called another. I have been frustrated by this my entire life and to now be contemplating doing it to my daughter feels a little wrong. On the other hand, I survived it and can now appreciate the significance and meaning behind my name. The name my husband and I keep coming back to is Sarah Emmeline. Emmeline, though not a family name, feels special. I like the connection it has to multiple suffragettes and women’s rights activists as well as it being the name of the title character in a book about female independence that I enjoyed reading. Additionally, it was the name of my first cabbage patch doll, and as a result, it’s a name I have always had a soft spot for. While I do love the name, something is keeping me from completely committing. It is definitely my husband’s first choice and he has told our son the name, who has now taken to calling her Baby Emme in the sweetest little voice that melts my heart. But is Emme too cutesy? Will Emmeline constantly be mispronounced? (I prefer the Emma-line, rhyming with pine pronunciation). Does it work with James or is it too uncommon alongside a top 10 boys name? Does it sound like a trendy, made-up name as one of my friends suggested? Other names we like but that don’t feel quite right are:

Clara
Celia
Charlotte
Kate
Eliza/Elizabeth
Linnea (I love, husband hates)
Adeline
Isabella (family name but too popular)
Cora
Maggie (we don’t like any of the longer name options)
Georgia (if we had a boy, George would almost certainly have been the name so I want to hang onto it in case a boy were to come along)

I’d love to hear your thoughts on the best option for us. Please feel free to suggest new names or ones from our list that we should reconsider. I’m sorry for the incredibly long post but I would be so appreciative of any guidance you may be able to offer on these naming dilemmas! And I’ll be sure to send an update!

Thank you!!
L.

 

As time passes, I feel increasingly incredulous at the way I considered Paul so progressive just because he was WILLING TO DISCUSS other options than going with his surname. And at how both of us concluded that there was nothing else that was worth the hassle and confusion—as if “having someone periodically make an incorrect assumption about our surname” would have been so terrible, and “me having to give up my family name and use his family name for ALL OF MY CHILDREN” was so much lighter a load.

And I can’t believe I felt as if I were really getting my way to have my surname put in as the children’s second middle name. Not even their first middle name, but the SECOND one. The one that gets left off of many forms that don’t have room for two. I’m still glad we did that rather than doing nothing, but it feels like being grateful for crumbs.

My hope is that the way you and I are feeling, which is the way I have noticed a lot of other adult women feeling, is a feeling that will move like electricity down to the next generation of women: that THEY will think, “Why would I give up my OWN name and take HIS name?? That’s insane!” and then also NOT give all the children his name so that she ends up the only one not in the family surname club. My hope is that if we as a society can’t come up with a fair solution that makes sense for every family, then we as a society are going to make room for a lot of different ways to do surnames, and that most of those ways will equally represent both parents (and/or average out to equal representation), and that we as a society will stop acting as if that’s weird. We’ve had comments on surname posts that make me wonder if there’s something in the water—like, women commenting that they don’t think using the father’s surname for the children should in any way mean the mother should get any more say in the rest of the name, because that’s just normal and doesn’t count. AS IF THAT IS NOT, AT ITS CORE, THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS. Which family do these children belong to? Which family matters? Who is head of the family, as symbolically shown by his spouse and children taking his name? What name goes over the door, on the mailbox, in the phone book, in the newspapers? What name goes onward down the family tree, and which one is abandoned? THIS STUFF MATTERS ENORMOUSLY.

In moments of regret and societal despair, I have fantasized about dropping my husband’s surname from my own name and from my children’s names. I grew those children in my body, I have done the vast majority of their care over the years: if they must be marked with one family name or the other, they should be marked with MINE. It is interesting to me that when I do consider this, what I worry about is the apparent symbolic attack on Paul: if I drop his surname, if I give his surname to the children only as a second middle name, how can that represent anything but the most enormous slap in the face? (This is when I pause, wondering if anyone else is thinking as I then do about what an enormous slap it is to the mother and the mother’s family, when her name is preemptively stripped from her and from all her future descendants.)

About your son’s name. I feel almost weary as I root for the option to change his name to include your surname as a second middle: it feels like so much trouble, and for crumbs, and I don’t know how much hassle is involved but I expect a fair amount, and I hesitate to push anyone to deal with city hall about anything, when I myself would almost rather perish. But—when my eldest graduated high school, and they read his full name and one of those names was my birth surname, it is hard to explain how glad I was. I did not even slightly wish we had given him a shorter or less complicated or nicer-sounding name; if anything, I only wished we had hyphenated, so that we could have heard my name every day instead of once in 18 years. It gave me this feeling like…like names are IMPORTANT, not decorative. Like they are HISTORY and they MEAN something! Yes, there are names that would have been PRETTIER, but my family name doesn’t need to be pretty in order to be important.

There was a girl in Rob’s graduating class who had an almost startlingly complicated/clunky hyphenated surname. I am trying to think of an example that would communicate the feeling/sound of the name without giving away anything about the name, and I am failing. BOTH surnames are impossible to spell and pronounce. One of them is four syllables, the other is three. They don’t sound good together. And yet, weeping my way through the graduation ceremony, I thought, “Why didn’t WE do that??” Her name doesn’t have to “sound nice.” Her name communicates her ancestry, and IT INCLUDES HER MOTHER. Why is “sounding nice” more important than “INCLUDING HER MOTHER”?

How often, I wonder, do women drop the idea to use their own surname for the children because the name doesn’t sound nice? Compare that to how often we decide not to use the father’s surname just because it doesn’t sound nice. I went to school with a kid whose surname was Butt, and another whose surname was Dick. If those had been the mother’s surname, would there be a chance in hell of the children having those names anywhere within their names? But because it was the FATHER’S surname, it was worth the constant embarrassment. This is one of the many ways we reveal our beliefs about the relative value and importance of the parents’ surnames.

Every family that starts with anything except One Woman + One Man has to figure out the surname thing without falling back on the tradition of male names dominating, AND THEY ARE ALL MANAGING TO FIND SOLUTIONS that don’t involve one of them getting credit for agreeing it sucks that the only sensible solution is to go with tradition. One Man + One Woman families have some significant catching up to do in this area.

I am about to suggest an idea that I didn’t have the courage to do myself. I’m essentially saying to you, “I played it safe and went the nice comfy easy route that everyone understands, but you, YOU, should do the uncomfortable thing.” So I’d like to start by saying that you can trust me to 100% understand if you DON’T do it and instead do exactly as I did. I truly, deeply get it. But if we forget for a moment what the norms are, and we just look at the situation we have in your one single family, here is what we have:

1. Your husband, with his own birth surname
2. You, with your own birth surname
3. Your son, with your husband’s birth surname
4. Your daughter, with ______

Society is a mess, but your one single family can be balanced, surname-wise. If you like, you could change your son’s name to include your surname as a second middle name, and give your daughter her father’s surname in that same position. You and your husband could change your own names, taking the other one’s surname as a second middle name. (Perhaps wait and do this later, when the kids are older and it isn’t such a major ordeal to even get to the store for eggs, let alone get to city hall to do paperwork. You can make a date of it, maybe for a significant anniversary, while the kids are in school: first city hall, then lunch, then maybe a museum.)

I don’t know how to vote on the Sarah tradition. I have mixed feelings about naming traditions: on one hand, I find them touching and cool; on the other hand, they can cause such unnecessary pressure—and why does one person gets to name all the future generations? I strongly believe everyone should get to name their own babies. And especially when things get to the point that no one is actually using the revered name in daily life but instead just putting it on paperwork, it starts to seem like maybe no one really wants to do this tradition and it should stop. And I agree it seems odd to have your two kids named after your parents. I’m going to put this in list form:

1. The name Sarah would only be on the paperwork.
2. This was your own naming situation, and it has frustrated you your entire life.
3. It feels a little wrong to you to do this to your daughter.
4. The name Sarah feels plain and overused to you.
5. You lose the opportunity to choose your only daughter’s name.
6. You don’t like the idea of your two children having the same names as your parents.

Weigh this against the downside of using Sarah as a middle name: it “seems to water down the tradition somewhat.” It absolutely DOES dilute the honor, but perhaps it is high time for that dilution to happen, and well worth it.

But I can also see how, for various reasons, you might decide to continue the tradition. In which case, I am strongly in favor of Sarah Emmeline, called Emmeline. Emme is not too cutesy; if it becomes too cutesy, you will stop using it and use something else (Emmeline, Emma, Em, Ems). Emmeline will occasionally be mispronounced/misspelled, but within normal range. It works beautifully with James and doesn’t seem too uncommon next to it. It is not a trendy or made-up name; your friend was mean to say that, as well as wrong.

I feel like you are under a lot of pressure here. There is the intense societal pressure to use your husband’s surname for the kids. There is intense family pressure to use the name Sarah for your daughter. And now you have pressure from Swistle, trying to make you give your daughter your own surname AND dilute the family naming tradition. All of this while you’re pregnant.

Well. I will say this: my own vote is for Emmeline Sarah YourSurname (or, if you change your son’s name to James Reave YourSurname HisSurname, then Emmeline Sarah HisSurname YourSurname). But if you go with Sarah Emmeline YourSurname, or Sarah Emmeline HisSurname, I will understand. There is no one single option that is obvious and solves all the issues and makes everyone happy, and all of us have to weigh the pros and cons and then choose the solution we think will give us the least grief in the long run. I believe I may have chosen wrong, but that doesn’t mean it would be the same for you.

 

 

 

Name update:

Dear Swistle,

I’m sorry for the delayed update but wanted to let you know our final decisions after the birth of our daughter! I can’t thank you and your readers enough for your kind words of encouragement and affirmations that my feelings and desires were valid. While I absolutely loved the idea of passing my surname on to my daughter (and am excited to see a recent poster going this route), I couldn’t stop myself from thinking, “But what about James?!” I realized it was all or nothing for me and decided it was more important to me for us all to be a cohesive family unit that shared a name. Being an only child with divorced parents probably contributes to this extra strong desire for unity :) We decided it made the most sense to make my surname the second middle name for all of us. Not incredibly original I know, and I agree with you Swistle, it feels like crumbs. While this was not my ideal solution, I feel satisfied enough with this arrangement and will look forward to hearing my surname read aloud at my children’s graduation ceremonies. Unfortunately, it seems I’m not doing much to further our cause, but I do hope that others will have the courage to challenge tradition and that societal norms will have changed enough for our daughters to have an easier time making these tough decisions.

As for the first name/middle name debate, your comments and the comments of your readers truly helped free me from any sense of obligation I was feeling about using Sarah and I decided to see what felt right when we met her. When I saw her, I knew I wanted her to be a part of the (now seemingly unending) line of Sarahs. I know I’m just kicking the can down the road, but in that moment it felt like an honor and not a burden to be able to pass along the tradition and to share something special with her. I’ll do my best to make it clear to her that this tradition does not need to continue! So Sarah Emmeline (called Emmeline or Baby Emme) it is. Thank you again!!

L.

Baby Girl Roszell

22 Replies

We are expecting our first baby July 2018 and it’s a girl! So we need to decide on a name sooner than later. My husband’s last name is Roszell (Rose-Zell). We love the names: Isla (eye-lah) and Emma.

Other names on our list: Alina, Mila, Elle, Rosie, and Sophia. We can’t use Elle because it will rhyme with her last name. Same goes with Rose/Rosie. It just doesn’t sound right with Roszell. I think Alina is beautiful, but husband doesn’t care for it. I like Sophia but I’m not in love with it. It just feels too common and I don’t want her to be called Sophie.

We have nothing for Emma as a middle name. For Isla we have Isla Josephine. We love how sweet and bohemian Isla Josephine feels and would like a middle name that makes Emma feel the same way. Emma is such a beautiful name and we love that it is easy to pronounce. I’m just worried that it’s too common. We don’t like “filler” middle names like Grace or Marie. They’re pretty, but way too common. We also love how Emma can have a nickname. There really isn’t one for Isla.

As you have probably noticed we like names that end with an A sound. So we don’t really want a middle name with an A sound since it doesn’t seem to flow as well.

If we were having a boy he would have been Oliver Grey Roszell.

Hopefully I’ve given you enough information for you to send recommendations!

 

I think the upside of using a popular name is that you know so many people will agree: Emma IS a beautiful name. I am not sure if it will be too common for you or not. According to the Social Security Administration, it’s been in the Top Ten since 2002; for the past three years, it’s been in the number one spot as the very most popular girls’ name in the United States. To get an idea of what those rankings mean, let’s look at numbers. Here are the number of new baby girls named Emma born each year for the past five years we have data for:

2012: 20,922
2013: 20,921
2014: 20,912
2015: 20,415
2016: 19,414

Over one hundred thousand new baby girls named Emma, just in the last five years. In 2016, the name was used for just over 1% of all new baby girls.

But, as I periodically like to remind everyone, that’s approximately 1/4th the rate the name Jennifer was used in its prime, approximately 1/3rd the rate of peak Jessica. After those names, it was as if the country made a decision not to let that happen anymore: the next queen, Emily, only got as high as 1.3% usage; Isabella and Sophia only as high as 1.1%. I’m interested to see if this continues: if in the next decade our top names go down to .9%, or .8%, or even lower.

Where were we? Oh yes: whether Emma will be too common for you. At 1% usage, assuming a class size of 30 children of which 15 are girls, there is currently a national average of one Emma per six to seven classrooms. That won’t prevent funny little pockets of Emmas: she could have one year with two other Emmas in the room, as my son William did even though the year he was born the usage for his actual name (not William) was .5% and so had a national average of one per thirteen classrooms. But I don’t consider duplicates a huge problem: the three Williams are in high school now and still greet each other in the halls with “Hi, William S.!” and “Hi, William B.!” and “Hi, William T.!”

Because this is your first child, you may or may not have yet had contact with a lot of other children. I think that’s when a name’s usage becomes much more vivid for parents: you get the new daycare directory, or your child is talking about other kids at recess, and that’s when you find out for sure how much it bugs you to have so many other Emmas. Until that time, it’s a matter of imagining it and making guesses. Do you feel as if it would bother you if she had another Emma in her classroom? Would you guess that it would bother you if two kids in her social circle were named Emma? Do you think it bother you (as it did bother me, when it happened with William) if, at kindergarten registration, the registrar said, “Emma—oh, we’ve gotten a lot of those!” And the name has been quite common for a couple of decades now, so there will be Emmas in every grade: every parent you encounter will know Emmas already; many children you encounter will have siblings named Emma.

We haven’t even touched on the name Isla yet. The first time it hit the Top 1000 was 2008, when it appeared at #623. Here’s what it’s been doing since:

2009: #345
2010: #297
2011: #268
2012: #229
2013: #167
2014: #150
2015: #141
2016: #126

It’s hard to say how much further it will rise, but it’s something to be aware of. Right now it’s in a range I consider perfect (and can continue rising for awhile and still be in this range): used often enough to be familiar, not often enough for people to be tired of it.

I think Isla Josephine is gorgeous. Let’s see if we can find a middle name for Emma that gives you a similar feeling. Because the name Emma is so common, it’s a challenge to make it sound Bohemian; I think I would look for something quite uncommon for the middle name, to average things out. But I’d also look for names similar to Josephine—and in fact, I’m going to include Josephine. I’m also going to include a lot of names with A-sounds, even though you specifically mentioned you don’t think it sounds nice; I LOVE multiple A-sounds in a name (especially when two names in a row both end in -a), and also I didn’t notice that preference until I’d already made the list—but let’s pretend I DID notice and am now lightly sowing the list with pro-A-sound propaganda.

Emma Adelaide Roszell (EAR)
Emma Antonia Roszell (EAR)
Emma Azalea Roszell (EAR)
Emma Beatrix Roszell (EBR)
Emma Celeste Roszell (ECR)
Emma Clarity Roszell (ECR)
Emma Claudia Roszell (ECR)
Emma Cordelia Roszell (ECR)
Emma Flannery Roszell (EFR)
Emma Frances Roszell (EFR)
Emma Gwendolyn Roszell (EGR)
Emma Hermione Roszell (EHR)
Emma Josephine Roszell (EJR)
Emma Katherine Roszell (EKR)
Emma Lavender Roszell (ELR)
Emma Magnolia Roszell (EMR)
Emma Marguerite Roszell (EMR)
Emma Marigold Roszell (EMR)
Emma Minerva Roszell (EMR)
Emma Octavia Roszell (EOR)
Emma Persephone Roszell (EPR)
Emma Priscilla Roszell (EPR)
Emma Ramona Roszell (ERR)
Emma Sabrina Roszell (ESR)
Emma Simone Roszell (ESR)
Emma Spring Roszell (ESR)
Emma Sylvia Roszell (ESR)
Emma Valentine Roszell (EVR)
Emma Victoria Roszell (EVR)
Emma Waverly Roszell (EWR)

Were there any names you really liked, but considered too out-there to use as a first name? Those might be great here. Or since the child will have your husband’s surname, perhaps you could have more input on the middle name: Emma Alina Roszell.

I’ve been trying to think of more first name candidates, but not much is coming to mind. Possibly Emmeline? It gives you the sound of Emma, but in a less common form. But if you’d like to use Isla for a future potential sister, then I like Emmeline less: Emmeline and Isla is tongue-tangling for me.

Eliza was another one I thought of (I like the repeated Z-sound with the surname), but not if you’d also like to use Isla. Eliza is almost a combination of Emma and Isla.

Or Genevieve. Genevieve Roszell. Maybe Genevieve and Isla later on. Yes, I like that.

Perhaps something like Clara? It has the sweetness of Emma. Clara Roszell. I don’t like it very much with Isla.

Molly, too, has the sweetness of Emma. Molly Roszell. But again, I’m not fond of it with Isla, if you wanted to keep that name for a future girl.

I like Polly a little better with Isla, I think because Polly has an edgier/fresher sound. Polly Roszell. I like the repeated double-L.

Or Sally: same thing about it being a little edgier/fresher, though I still don’t think I’d pair it with Isla. Sally Roszell.

I’m finding Isla difficult to work with as a sibling name, as you can see, and that may be something to look into ahead of time: if you imagine using the name Isla, can you think of other girl names you like with it? And I am looking forward to ideas from commenters on this.

I think actually what it’s bringing to light is that Emma and Isla are different styles: Emma goes with sweet friendly names such as Clara and Molly, and with other popular girl names such as Sophia and Olivia. Isla goes with…I’m not sure, but I’m thinking more along the lines of Lorelei and Carys and Imogen. With a first baby, I like to advise thinking ahead to future siblings for this very reason: it’s easy to accidentally use a name for the first baby that’s an outlier for the parents’ more usual style. Do you feel as if you’re more of an Emma, Clara, Sophia kind of family, or more of an Isla, Cleo, Fiona kind of family?

Baby Girl Owens, Sister to Eli and Vivian

51 Replies

Hi Swistle!
You and your readers helped us name our Vivian (Vivi) Marie, little sister to Eli Dane, back in 2015. We are now in the third trimester with another little girl and are hoping for some help, as we are struggling with this one! We’ve agreed to use “June” as a middle name, to honor my grandma, who we lost last year.

Overall, like many people, we like names that are classic…or at least easily recognized and pronounced, but NOT top 50 (or even 100) names. We didn’t completely realize this until after we named our son, who now goes by “Eli O.” in several circles.

So, for this sweet girl, bonus points for a less-popular name with a spunky vibe, or maybe just a fun (but not too cutesy) nickname. Vivian checked all the boxes for us, and we love her name. We’d like to possibly have one more child, and we love the names Jasper or Isaiah for a boy.

Names I like and husband hasn’t entirely vetoed:

Coretta. This was top on my list last time too. I love the nickname “Etta” and I love “Coretta June.” Somehow this feels right to me and I keep coming back to it. It’s not popular at all, but is it way-out there in a weird way? We’ve toyed with Arietta as another way to get to “Etta,” which I also think is pretty.
Liza. My absolute favorite girl name is Eliza, but with Eli, it’s obviously too close. I think Liza can stand alone, but it still seems a little too close to Eli for me to be sold.

Louisa. My hang-up on this name is the Lou-weez-a/Lou-ees-a pronunciation issue. I don’t have a huge problem with either, but I do think it would bother me to not have a consistent pronunciation. Even my husband and I say it differently, without even trying. Am I nuts? Also not hooked on Louey/Lulu nicknames, but not a deal-breaker.

Other names I like but DH says no:
Juliet
Maren
Linnea
Sadie

Names we like style-wise, but are either too popular or can’t use (friends, etc):
Norah
Audrey
Lydia
Penelope
Josephine
Maya
Stella
Fiona

The ONLY names my husband has offered this go-round:
Ruby (I don’t hate it, but I’m not in love).
Lucia/Lucy (I don’t like the “I Love Lucy” connection of Lucy/Vivian…not sure how many people would catch that, and I really don’t like the pronunciation “Loo-sha” that some people use.)
Zoe (Doesn’t seem to fit, I don’t like).

What do you think of any of this? Or other name suggestions that go well with the middle name and siblings? We have two months to go. J

Many thanks again,
~L

 

I feel as if you and your husband are so close to agreeing on a name. Look at the similarity of these options: Louisa, Juliet, Ruby, Lucy. All those “oo” and “ee” and “L” sounds! I want to make sure your husband is evaluating/considering your suggestions as thoroughly as you are evaluating/considering his.

Here are the things I think are not issues unless they start to deeply bother you:

1. Lou-weez-a/Lou-ees-a
2. Lucy/Vivian

I agree with you that Zoe doesn’t fit well, and that Liza is too close, and that not liking the LOO-sha pronunciation may rule out Lucia.

My definite favorites from the lists are Ruby and Juliet. Last time we talked about how a name can “spin” a previous sibling’s name; I think Ruby emphasizes the vintage sass of Vivian, and Juliet emphasizes the vintage romance. I think Ruby Owens and Juliet Owens both work very well. I like Ruby June better than Juliet June, but I think both work fine, and that an honor name doesn’t have to go perfectly.

I wonder if you’d like Georgia? It has the sass of Ruby, with some of the sound of Juliet and Norah. Georgia Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Georgia.

What do you think of Genevieve? Too much V with Vivian, or a nice tie-in? Genevieve Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Genevieve. I thought of it because you and I share a fondness for Josephine and Fiona and Penelope, and Genevieve is another on my list.

Margaret is another of my favorites. ONE MILLION EXCELLENT NICKNAMES. Margaret Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Margaret.

You and I also share a fondness for the names Eliza and Louise/Louisa, so I wonder if you would be with me on Eloise? I am not sure, but I THINK that is different enough from Eli for me to use it. I don’t love that they both start with El-, but I think I could deal with it, especially since the E is pronounced differently, and the L is in a different syllable in the two names (EE-lye and ELL-oh-weez), and there’s another child in between—but I don’t know if you’ll feel the same. Eloise Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Eloise. Urrrrg, maybe it’s too close, I can’t tell. I guess I’d prefer to use something else unless my heart was absolutely set on Eloise, in which case I’d go ahead.

Ooo, how about Cecily? Fresh, sweet, not too common. Cecily Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Cecily.

Or Celeste: also fresh, sweet, not too common. Celeste Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Celeste.

Or Rosalie: another fresh, sweet, not too common. Rosalie Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Rosalie.

Or Felicity: again with the fresh, sweet, not too common. Felicity Owens. Eli, Vivian, and Felicity.

Or Clara. It doesn’t have a good nickname, but I am suggesting it anyway. Clara Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Clara.

Or Clarissa, which makes it even less common and is better for nicknames. Clarissa Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Clarissa.

Or Melody. I ran into a Melody the other day, and it practically slapped me across the face with its familiar unusualness. Melody Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Melody.

Or Matilda. Matilda Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Matilda.

Or Sabrina. Why don’t I know ANY Sabrinas? Sabrina Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Sabrina.

Or Bianca. I know only one Bianca, and I love her name every time I hear it. It reminds me of Fiona. Bianca Owens; Eli, Vivian, and Bianca.

[Edited to add: AFTER I wrote up to this point, I went back to the post from 2014 to make sure I wasn’t suggesting all the same names—and I see I am suggesting four of the same names: Cecily, Felicity, Genevieve, and Georgia. Well, I am consistent!]

Wait, you wouldn’t want to use June as a first name, would you? I love it and hardly ever encounter it. June Owens; Eli, Vivian, and June. It has the sounds of Lucy, Ruby, Juliet. This is my top choice for you. The middle name could perhaps be a name you would have loved to use as a first name if it weren’t so popular, or a name already used by family/friends.

 

 

 

Name update:

Huge thanks to you and your readers for helping us name our newest addition! My husband ultimately came around to my #1 choice and it fits her perfectly so I couldn’t be happier. Here is Coretta “Etta” June 0wens!

Baby Boy Ch@nn, Brother to Riley

23 Replies

Hi Swistle,

I wrote to you back in January 2015. I was worried that our name choice for our daughter (Riley) would not age well. Thankfully, you and others assuaged my fears and Riley Ch@nn was born in February 2015.

We’re expecting a baby boy in April 2018 and we’re stuck on a name for him. My husband really likes the name “Ryder” because he thinks it would match Riley very well. I am hesitant because Riley and Ryder seem to match too much! Would you and others consider the names too similar and cutesy for siblings?

Other names that we’ve liked but have somewhat dismissed:
Dylan – it sounds like something bad in Cantonese (we are Chinese)
Casey – brings to mind Casey Anthony, and we have a Caylee in our family
Names we like but can’t use because close friends have used them: Tyler, Logan, Zachary, Avery

Any other suggestions?

Thank you!
Mom to Riley and TBD

 

The names Riley and Ryder are so similar, using them for siblings would be a dramatic and highly noticeable thing to do. And if you have any chance at all of having a third child someday, I absolutely would not give yourselves that future naming problem—though I suppose there’s still Rylan available.

I wonder if thinking about other matchy pairings would help your husband see the issue? Like Casey and Caylee from your example above: if it’s too close for cousins and other relatives, it’s even closer for siblings. Or Madison and Madilyn. Brady and Braden. Carter and Carson. Emerson and Emory. Finley and Finian. Harley and Harper. McKinley and Mackenzie. Or maybe those will all sound good to him: some parents like sibling groups such as Emma and Ella or Jayden and Caden, and some parents like names such as John Johnson or William Williamson, so it really is a matter of personal preference and he might just like very matched sibling sets. My own opinion is that it makes it very, very difficult for other people to keep the names straight; helping other people tell the kids apart is not the number-one priority of baby-naming, but it’s something to consider.

The situation is made even more complicated by Riley being a unisex name. In fact, I’d need to remove my examples such as Madison and Madilyn: that pairing is confusing, but it’s not as confusing as Casey and Caylee, or Carter and Carson, or Emerson and Emory, or Harley and Harper.

I started to look for more options to consider, and realized we could take a few right from the list of sample pairings. Plus I’ll add a few more.

Brady
Brody
Carson
Carter
Connor
Ellis
Finley
Grady
Keegan
Kieran
Mason
Miller
Parker
Ranger
Sawyer
Spencer
Wesley
Wilson

Ranger is my Compromise Option: it’s similar in style/mood/sound to Ryder, but I don’t think the pairing with Riley is startling or confusing. Finley and Wesley are also potential compromises: they match the endings of the names rather than the beginnings.

 

 

 

Name update:

Hi Swistle,

Thanks for the post! We thought the suggestions from you and your readers were very helpful. Ryder was taken off the table due to my reluctance because it sounded too cutesy. We went to the hospital with a short list of two names – Ronan (my favorite) and Tristan (his favorite) – and an agreement to “see what he looked like” before deciding.

No matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t picture him as a Ronan, and he didn’t seem to be a Tristan either. So we went back to the drawing board with limited sleep (and in my case, also loopy with pain meds) with the goal of getting to a name by the time we had to leave the hospital.

The previously dismissed Zachary came up again, and we just liked how it sounded with Riley (and our dog Finney), and we also loved the shortened form Zac. Ultimately, we liked the name enough to overcome our previous reluctance to use it because a friend had used it.

So…introducing Zachary Ch@nn, born April 5th! He completes our family.

Thanks again to you and the readers!
Mama Ch@nn

And here’s a picture of Zac and his sister Riley.

Baby Twin Girls Lund

48 Replies

Hello!

Our twin girls have arrived a bit early and we’re under the gun for picking their names, as they lay there and stare at us in shame. We thought we’d have more time! Sigh… We had come upon Olivia and Ava fairly organically, only to find out how popular they are, and as a pairing too. That really took the luster off for us, and now we’re trying to decide if we want to stay with that initial thought or move to something at least a little more unique.

We’ve since come up with a Lennon/Marlo pairing, or maybe Lennon/Ava, or Lennon/Olivia. Other names heavily considered were:
Mabel
Rowan
Isla

Last name will be Lund. We haven’t even gotten into middle names yet, haha. We’re a baby naming mess.

Thank you in advance,

Andrew III + Taila

 

Lennon Lund is a lot of L and N for a name; I don’t like the way it feels when I say it, but of course that sort of thing is heavily subjective. Rowan Lund is okay, but feels a little clunky. Marlo Lund is better, but the -lo/Lu- combination is a little awkward; I feel the same about the -el/L- and -la/Lu- of Mabel Lund and Isla Lund. I would not pair Lennon (unusual, unisex, surname name) with either Ava or Olivia (Top Ten, used exclusively for girls, non-surnamey).

Now that I have dismissed all the options except the one that no longer has luster, where does that leave us? Well, we could look for names similar to Ava and Olivia but a little less common.

Aubrey
Audrey
Cora
Eliza
Eva
Evelina
Fiona
Geneva
Genevieve
Ivy
Josephine
Lydia
Mavis
Penelope
Ruby
Sabrina
Sylvia
Veronica
Victoria
Vienna
Vivian

Eva and Lydia has a very similar sound to Ava and Olivia, but is quite a bit less common. Ivy and Vivian is another similar-sound option.

Can you put a finger on what you like about Ava/Olivia? Is it the V-sounds? The long vowels? The -a endings? The way the two names share sounds (that is, it wouldn’t necessarily have to be V or the -a, but just any repeated sounds)? The two/four-syllable pairing? That might help you to form a new pairing.

For middle names, it can be fun to take advantage of the twin situation to honor two equivalent people at the same time: both grandmothers, for example, or perhaps the two of you each have one sister to honor, or would each like to honor one aunt. Or perhaps each of you would like to choose the name of an artist/scientist/actor/author/activist you admire. Or, since you are using the father’s family surname, perhaps both of the mother’s grandmothers could be honored, or perhaps the mother has two sisters. Or you could honor the parents with middle names Andrea/Drew and Taila. If you like twinny things (I did/do), you could consider giving Baby A a middle name starting with A, and Baby B a middle name starting with B. Or you could give them matching middle initials. Or if you still love the names Ava and Olivia but don’t want to use them as first names, they might work as middles. Or if it ends up being very hard to narrow down first-name options, the hard-to-let-go runners-up could be used as middles.

Edited to add: The parents are having the same commenting problem many of you are having (we have had no luck getting the website host to fix it, nor any luck figuring out anything in common among people who are having trouble), so here is the comment they were unable to post:

Thank you so much for the in depth thoughts and analysis! Its so amazing to get your third-person view without the pressure of family/friends. There’s a lot to parse through in there, and we will be thinking long and hard about the list you’ve offered up! You and your readers are crazy good at this!!!

Its interesting because we can now actually look at our babes, call them a name and see if it works. We eliminated quite a few names that way to get to the list in the initial email (Cora, Asa, Maeve, Amelia, Wren).

Mom loves the Ls, Ms, Os and soft sounding names. Dad loves the As and Vs. Both Mom and Dad like the idea of repeated sounds, names that work well together without being the same… Mom and Dad also like the idea of semi-unisex names that keep open the world of possibilities for the girls as they grow into themselves. We really think about what type of people we’d love for these girls to become (strong-willed, independent, creative, hard-working, loving/caring, etc.) and what kind of names exemplify those traits.

For middle names, Dad really likes the idea of Mom’s surname (Fisher) as a middle name for one or both of the girls, or even as a second middle name. Mom is keeping her last name, so it feels appropriate to pass it along to the girls in some fashion.

As we continuously talk about names, we do keep coming back to Ava and Olivia and wondering if it really matters all that much that they are popular. There was an initial distaste to finding out their chart position (#2 and #5 in 2016) [note from Swistle: according to the Social Security Administration, Olivia was #2 in 2016 and Ava was #3], but maybe it wouldn’t affect them so poorly, and we do still really like them, aaaaand they do fit the girls.

Other random question: What kind of pairing could work with the name Mabel? We haven’t been able to get a second name that suits sister well.

Thank you again and again and again. This is so needed and insanely helpful!!!

 

 

 

Name update:

Heyo, the website let us comment!

We are overwhelmed by everyone’s kindness and thoughts for our two little ones.

Based on Mom and Dad’s conversations and your comments, we ended up putting Ava and Olivia back into the mix. We axed Lennon and Isla, and while we loved Mabel neither sister fit the name. Soren was a wonderful late addition, but we couldn’t find a middle name that fit for us.

Eventually we happily landed on Ava Brie Lund and Marlo Fisher Lund. Brie is Mom’s middle name.

Thank you again for your help. While we didn’t follow all of your advice, it was really really helpful to set a baseline that Mom and Dad could jointly work from. Here’s a few pics of our little nuggets. They’re still in the NICU but hopefully soon to leave :)

Andrew III + Taila

Ava

Marlo

Baby Naming Issue: The Pronunciation of Giselle

36 Replies

Hi, I hope you can help us with a baby name dilemma having to do with pronunciation!

I am from the U.S.A. and my husband is from South America. He suggested the name “Giselle” for our coming baby girl. I had become familiar with this name from time living in South America and also loved it. In South America it is pronounced “Ji Sel” which I think is beautiful and to me is the most intuitive pronunciation of the way the name is spelled. Here is the dilemma: After researching a bit about the name, I found that the most common pronunciation in the U.S.A. is “Jiz Zel” which I find really unattractive being that it reminds lots of people of the African animal and even worse the association of the first syllable of the name to the vulgar slang word “jizz”. So there is a sector of the U.S. population who would pronounce Giselle “Ji Sel” (Hispanics and I understand French Canadians also pronounce it this way) but most Americans pronounce it Jiz Zel. Could I dare to hope that our daughter could be called “Ji Sel” by others or would she be known and called “Jiz Zel” by most people in the U.S.? This would be so disappointing but should I forget Giselle and look for another name?

 

I pronounce it somewhere in between: I say it with a Z sound instead of a soft S, but more like jih-ZELL, with the Z attached to the second syllable, so that I never made a connection to the vulgar slang until reading this letter. I do associate the name with gazelles, but it’s a positive association: beauty, grace, cute ears, etc.

Wikipedia mentions only the Ji-zell pronunciation, but doesn’t even have it with emphasis or phonetic marks so I’m not sure if that counts as a complete entry. Forvo gives two different versions, one French and one English, both pronounced with the Z-sound. Inogolo also includes two: jih-ZELL and zhee-SELL. The Baby Name Bible says it is either GEE-zah-lah or jiz-ELLE. The Baby Name Wizard says it is ji-ZEHL. It is looking to me as if the correct pronunciation in the U.S. uses the Z sound.

I knew a Lesley in high school who wanted her name pronounced with a soft S instead of a Z, and she had at best mixed success. Her struggle was complicated by people not really hearing/noticing the difference. I do think you could get the people closest to you to use the soft S—but if you’ll be living in the U.S., and if you hate the Z pronunciation and it’s going to drive you crazy to hear it, I think you’d be happier choosing another name. I wonder if you’d like Giselle in the middle-name position, so you can still have the name but without hearing it pronounced very often?