Jennifer writes:

This isn’t really a baby naming problem as we have no baby to name at the moment but, I’m curious as to how you feel about choosing a name based on possible nicknames or shortening of the name…

My son’s name is Liam & I feel rather strongly about not shortening boys’ names so Liam works really well in that regard. Girls’ names I have no problem with longer names that can be shortened to use in day-to-day life; in fact our girl name for Liam was Gabriella which would have been shortened to Brie (not Gabby or Ella).

I thought I was pretty safe with choosing Liam and having this “issue” with shortening boys’ names AND nicknames…turns out my in-laws (why is it always the in-laws??) started calling him Li-Li the DAY HE WAS BORN! I cannot stand how that sounds, how it feels to say it (I never myself ever called him that), what it makes me think when they call him that…I like nothing about it yet still they managed to come up with a shortened/nickname for my unshortenable/unnicknameable boy name! Thankfully as he outgrow his newborn-ness they stopped calling him that, because seriously, could you imagine a 12 year old being called Li-Li by his Uncle? Talk about embarrassing…and of course, I apologize in advance to anyone who uses this & loves it, I just do not!

So, do you have a preference for length of names & nickname-ability for gender? I like the shorter boy names & longer girl names – plus they sound better with our last name! Admittedly, my name is a longer name and way obviously shorten-able so I could totally be biased…

And totally off topic – do you ever use the Must Sound Good When I Scream It name test? I especially use that when testing out how the first & middle names sound together :)

Oh, what a very interesting topic! I LOVE to talk about nicknames, because I am sooooo inconsistent: sometimes I will say one thing Very Strongly, and two minutes later I can say the opposite thing just as Strongly.

And I’m picky about nicknames: I consider some nicknames “legitimate” and some nicknames NOT, and who gets to decide what makes a nickname legitimate? ONLY ME. I will claim it “just IS that way,” but then I will make a ruling in the opposite direction on a similar issue (or even the SAME issue!), and I won’t bat an eye when I say it “just IS that way,” too.

Where were we? Oh, yes! The first issue you bring up is the maddening one of people using nicknames when you don’t want them to, which is something we touched on in the post about the name Devereaux. I think it’s almost impossible to prevent a determined Nicknamer from nicknaming a child—and as you’ve found, they can nickname ANYTHING. If you’d named him the letter L, they’d have called him Elly-Elly-L or whatevs. But aside from the very determined (and why IS this so often the in-laws?), the trends are on your side if you want to avoid nicknames: never have there been so many Jameses and Williams and Elizabeths NOT going by Jimmy and Billy and Beth. (Okay, fine, I have no idea if the “never have there been” part of that sentence is true.)

Shoot, I’ve lost my place again. Oh, yes! You wanted to know if I had a preference for nicknameability of names, and if it was different preference for boys and for girls. So far, what I’ve noticed is this: I don’t mind if a name has a nickname, as long as I LIKE the nickname. I’ve rejected names that I loved in their full forms but disliked the nicknames of: I knew I could control what I called the child, and that I would have some control over what my friends and family called the child—but that I would have zero control over what the child wanted to be called, and that the child might choose the very nickname I hated.

I notice that I tend to prefer shorter, more common boy names: of my four boys, none of them goes by a name-based nickname yet (I say “name-based” because we’re the kind of family that calls people Hedgehog and Blue and Fry). I tend to prefer longer, more elaborate girl names: I call my girl by her long name, but almost everyone else in the family calls her by an approved nickname and/or by the non-name-related nickname that occurred spontaneously when she was a baby. Because I liked playing around with nicknames as a child, I do like girl names with nickname potential.

You also asked if I use the Scream Test to judge a name’s suitability. I use something similar, which is the Nag Test. I say the name in this sort of sentence: “Name, did you go potty?” “Name, did you finish your homework?” “Name! I said to put away your shoes!”

Jessica Alba and Cash Warren had their baby girl this week and named her Honor Marie. During my last pregnancy, I came upon the name Honor in a novel and lovvvvvvvved it. I immediately added it to my girl-name list and considered it a strong candidate: I love virtue names, and I love the way the name Honor looks.

Then I said it out loud to Paul, and I realized I didn’t like the way it sounded out loud. Onner. And then within about 5 minutes we’d made allllll the jokes: “Honor, thy father and mother,” “Love Honor, and obey,” “Defend your Honor,” “Medal of Honor,” “Code of Honor,” “Honor system,” and OMG ETC. And I realized that Honor could not be on our list, just as the beautiful name Hope can never be a serious contender for our family because we WOULD NOT STOP making “jokes” (quotes indicate non-funniness of such jokes) even when NO ONE, not even US, thought they were funny. We cannot stop.

My mom is the opposite. She doesn’t like virtue names and she doesn’t like the way the name Honor looks, but she DOES like it said outloud: “Like Connor, without the C,” she said. She also pointed out that it’s a great name for people who like names such as Anna and Andrea pronounced with more of an O-as-in-octopus sound instead of the A-as-in-apple sound more typical in the U.S.

And my friend Mairzy says: “It’s still a little out in left field. But it’s a good left field: the sound is similar to Tori and Nora, and the meaning is faultless. Its drawbacks are that it’s a bit pretentious (almost impossible not to intone the name in an impressive bass voice) and doesn’t have any good nicknames. Still, when I read that Jessica Alba had used the name for her daughter, my first thought was, ‘What a good name!’ So I guess that’s my final verdict.”

I’m interested to know what YOU think of the name Honor. I’ll put a poll over to the right. [Poll closed; see below.]

[Poll results:
Love it, would use it: 8 votes, roughly 6%
Love it but wouldn’t use it: 23 votes, roughly 16%
Like it: 41 votes, roughly 29%
Neutral: 24 votes, roughly 17%
Dislike it: 34 votes, roughly 24%
Hate it: 10 votes, roughly 7%]

Alicia writes:

It’s me, with the baby Devereaux again. I have a name advice question. I was obviously in love with the name Devereaux even while still pregnant. I adore even more now that my little man is here, and it totally fits him, too! But a couple issues have come up.

First: My mother insists on calling him Devvie. Bleh. Every time she says that I cringe with the thought that if it were to stick somehow, everyone’s going to think I have a Debbie unless I correct them. All the time. Ick.

We had talked about calling him Dev, but it seems to be a little choppy. I’ve started calling him Devo (And how cute is Dev’eaux?) but I just can’t seem to get my mom converted… What do you think is the best way to deal with this? My mother says it’s just natural flow, Devvie is what comes out without thought.

And Second: I know that I just have to buck up my defenses and not let it get to me, but when people ask me what I named the baby, I get that, “*pause*… Oh. *sneer*” with a barely-concealed disgusted look. All the time. Or, perhaps even worse, “Hm. Well… That’s nice. *silence*”

What would you suggest is the best thing to say to these people? There’s NOTHING wrong with the name I picked for my baby, and luckily I’m not so insecure as to think there is. But it’s getting on my nerves, really.

I appreciate your opinions!!! :-)

 
This is rough. It’s one reason baby-naming is so tricky: you need to choose the name YOU love, but on the other hand it’s not unreasonable to consider the reactions of family, friends, and society, because the baby will be living with that name among those same family, friends, and society.

In your case, you’re finding that family, friends, and society are not fans of the name you love. I think there are a couple of approaches for dealing with this, and I think the approaches are different for friends/family than for strangers. Let’s start with friends/family. The options are:

1) Allow people to make the modifications they feel are necessary to get the name to sit comfortably. Allow your mother to call him what she wants to, for example. It rankles—of course it rankles–but trying to make the child’s grandparents call him a certain name is a little like trying to force the child’s high school friends to call him a certain name. If his grandmother’s nickname causes any confusion for other people, you can say, “Oh, that’s just Grandma’s special name for him—we actually call him ______.” One set of my grandparents called me Kris their whole lives, even though NO ONE ELSE did, and to me it just ended up being “their special name for me.” I didn’t like being called Kris, but I liked THEM calling me Kris, if you see the difference. Your son may feel the same way—and if he isn’t, HE can tell Grandma.

2) Or you can have it out. I’m thinking of something along the lines of something said in a very kind, understanding, affectionate tone of voice, something like, “Oh, mom. I know you don’t like the name. But it IS what I named him. And I’d like him to be called _____.” You see why the tone is key. Imagine saying this with hand-on-hip attitude, and you can see how lifetime feuds start up. If she says, “But this just comes naturally!” you’d counter with, “I know. But I’d like him to be called ____.” Or you could try, “Oh, ick. Every time you say that, I think you’re calling him ‘Debbie’.”

For friends or cousins or aunts who keep bringing it up in a way that seems pointed or passive-aggressive, “I just can’t get used to that name!” or whatever, you could use that kind/understanding/affectionate tone and say, “I know. But it IS his name, so….”—and trail off, the implication being a pleasant but firm “…so shut up about it now, kthanx loveya.” Sometimes what’s needed is a reminder that the decision has been made and the time for input is officially over.

Now, for strangers whose reactions are not good when you tell them the name. There isn’t much that can be done about that, since what we’re talking about here is what we’re IMAGINING they’re thinking. Unless they actually SAY they’re disgusted by it, we have to allow for the possibility that it’s something else: maybe they’ve never heard the name before and don’t even know yet what they think of it, or they couldn’t quite hear it and are too shy to ask for it to be repeated, or maybe they really like to know babies’ names but then don’t have any comments to make once they hear them, or maybe they deliberately don’t comment on baby names because they think it’s the parent’s choice and that a stranger’s opinion is meaningless.

Of course some of those people are indeed being total pineholes, and also patting themselves on the back for not saying what they really think. We’re not going to be able to cure them of THAT. There really isn’t anything you COULD say, though it’s kind of fun to think about it:

Them: *unpleasant expression* Oh, um. That’s an….interesting choice.

You: I resent the implication of your facial expression. You do realize I as his parent have the full right to name him whatever I please. I could have named him Sanitarynapkin and you would not be able to say Word One about it. So shut the heck up about my son’s perfectly normal, appropriate name. I mean, what is it you hope to accomplish with that sneer? Are you hoping I’ll say, “Oh, no, this total stranger doesn’t like my baby’s name! I’d better rush right out to the courthouse and get it changed to something this stranger approves of!” Clearly not. So wipe that expression off your ugly face. Pinehole.

But unless they actually say, “Ug, what a weird name,” you can’t really respond with anything except a tight-lipped smile. The thing is, SOME people are going to dislike ANY name. If they don’t think it’s too unusual, they’ll think it’s too common. They’ll think it’s too girlish/boyish, or not girlish/boyish enough. It’ll remind them of someone or something they don’t like, or they’ll think it has an ugly sound or an unfortunate rhyme.

Names are an excellent example of “You can’t please everyone” because you literally CAN’T. So EVERYONE is going to encounter SOME negative feedback, no matter WHAT name they choose for their baby. Here is the question for us today: What to do about it?

Mrs. Taylor writes:

I like more unusual names, but prefer if they can be read and pronounced correctly. So the name that I am debating over for a girl is Evie which I really like, but I want it to be said like “Stevie” and not “levee”. I’m worried that it would be pronounced wrong her whole life (which I have had to deal with and it gets old).

So I’m wondering what you think of the name and also if Evie is a stand alone first name or makes a better nickname. I like the idea of using it as a nickname, but I can’t find any names that I like as much that it could be a nickname for. I have thought of Evelyn, but then that lends itself more to Evie said like “levee”.

My other idea is a first name that starts with E. and middle name starts with V., then she could be “E.V.” and we could use Evie as nickname. But again I don’t really like any of them as much. This will be for our first child so no sibling names to worry about yet.

So what I am hoping to discuss.

1. What do you/readers think of Evie and can it work as a first name, not a nickname?
2. How do you most likely think that people would pronounce it the first time they see it?
3. Any other names that it could be a nickname for, or an E. first name, V. middle name?
4. Middle names for Evie Taylor.

Hope this isn’t too confusing!!!

Thanks so much for your help.

It SHOULD be clear-cut: Evie should be EE-vee, and Evvie should be EH-vee. But my eye does sometimes get confused: I think because I see the “Ev” first and say it as in Evelyn and Evan, and then I see the “ie” and tack it on. So even though I KNOW it’s EE-vee, I might stumble over it.

I did a little test just now: I wrote the name on a piece of paper and showed it to Paul, and I said, “How would you pronounce this?” He immediately said it the EE-vee way. Anyone who has someone nearby to run the test on, will you run it too? And let’s make a first poll for test results: Did they say it EH-vee (like Evan and Evelyn), or did they say it EE-vee (like Eve)? Let’s get an idea of how serious a situation we’re dealing with.

Now, to the other issues. I prefer Evie as a nickname, but I also think it works as a stand-alone name. What I would do is name her Eve and call her Evie: I love the name Eve and think the nickname Evie is an excellent way to use the name without calling the “Adam and Eve” thing QUITE so quickly to mind. You could also name her Eva and call her Evie, although that seems less natural to me. I realize the mind balks a bit at the idea of a nickname that’s longer than the given name, but banish the balk! It’s totally legit: John can be Johnny, Scott can be Scotty, Rose can be Rosie, Ann can be Annie, Lynn can be Lynnie, and Eve can be Evie.

I also like the way the Eve/Eva idea pushes the mind to the correct pronunciation of the nickname: if someone knows the child’s given name is Eve, they won’t be tempted to pronounce the nickname Evvie. So this is my top choice. Eve Taylor and Eva Taylor are both excellent choices, and I think the movie E.T. is old enough that her peers won’t have seen it or even heard of it.

I admit a fondness for your clever E.V. solution. I don’t usually lean toward initial names, but this one has sass. Most people find they are drawn again and again to names that start with certain letters, and one of my letters is E, so I find lots to love here. Plus, Verity and Victoria are both on my list of names I like but don’t want to use as first names. Erin Verity Taylor. Elena Victoria Taylor. Eliza Violet Taylor. Emily Victoria Taylor. Well, clearly this is my personal playground—but it’s still not what I’d do if I were you. If what you love is Evie, I think we should get you Evie.

If you want something longer than Eve/Eva, I think Evemarie is pretty. You could also go with Genevieve. Evemarie Taylor. Genevieve Taylor. Nice.

If you decide to go with straight Evie, let’s look at some middle names. I like to use the middle name to honor a relative, so if you’ve got anyone you want to honor, now’s the moment. It’s also a good place for names you like a lot but have ruled out as first names. I notice that there are a lot of middle initials that work with E and T to spell a common word or acronym: EAT, EDT, EMT, ENT, EST. None of them are a huge deal—more in the “good to take into account, but not necessarily dealbreakers” category.

Well, and the main thing here is to choose your ROUTE. Will you name her a shortish name such as Eve or Eva and call her Evie? Will you name her a longish name such as Evemarie or Genevieve and call her Evie? Will you give her the initials E.V. and call her Evie? Will you go with straight Evie?

And that’s what I think we should vote on here: the ROUTE. We’ll make that a second poll: the first poll is a survey to determine pronunciation issues, and the second is to vote on which direction you think the Taylors should go to get the name Evie. [Polls closed; see below.] If you want to be more specific and vote for a particular long/short/initial name, you can put that in the comment section. And if you’re feeling chatty, you can get into the middle name issue there as well.

[Poll results:

First poll (pronunciation):
EE-vee (like Eve): 135 votes, roughly 89%
EH-vee (like Evan): 17 votes, roughly 11%

Second poll (route):
Shortish name (like Eve or Eva): 83 votes, roughly 50%
Longish name (like Evemarie or Genevieve): 37 votes, roughly 22%
Initials (E.V.): 12 votes, roughly 7%
Just go with Evie: 33 votes, roughly 20%]

EB writes:

My husband is a third, and if we have a baby boy, we will name him as a fourth, IV. My question is: What are some nicknames that we can call him having to do with the number four? For instance, a third might be called Trey, and a fifth might be called Quin. I have never heard of what a fourth might be called.

If you know of any good names for a fourth off the top of your head or if you don’t mind querying your readers, I would so appreciate any help you can give.

Oh, I’m so glad that someone has given me the opportunity to show off about a little-known naming rule! This rule was a huge source of conflict between me and my high school boyfriend (he was a III). Here is the rule: Only popes and royalty keep their placeholders permanently.

Let’s say Ronald Jones Sr. has a son named Ronald Jones Jr. and a grandson named Ronald Jones III. And then let’s say Ronald Jones Sr. shuffles off this mortal coil. As of his death, Ronald Jones Jr. becomes Ronald Jones Sr., and Ronald Jones III becomes Ronald Jones Jr. This means that in most families, there is no need (or only a brief need) for a IV, and this is one reason there are so few good established nicknames.

However, perhaps you have noticed that this naming rule is unfamiliar? It’s because people (MALE people) get all possessive about their dangley little suffixes, and also because they like the idea of their Illustrious Name stretching onward for generations, and how does anyone know how MANY generations unless we keep adding numbers? If you tried to apply the naming rule correctly at this point, you’d just confuse everyone. “But I always thought you were Ronald Jones JUNIOR!,” people would say, shocked and alarmed. “But wait! Shouldn’t your son be V?” The mail mix-ups would be astonishing.

This means we need nicknames for a IV, and there really aren’t many, are there? Unlike III, which gives us cute foreign variations such as Tres/Trey and the cute short form of triple “Trip,” the foreign versions of the number four tend to be more like “Quatre,” and the short form of quadruple would be “Quad.” Not much to harvest there. And even though “IV” could be pronounced “Eye-vee,” I don’t think we want to go that route either.

I wonder about Ivan. It’s a stretch, but so is “Trip,” really. Desperate times call for desperate measures, is what I’m saying. Ivan is a nice name, and it’s a neat visual play on IV.

Got any Dutch or German in your background? The Dutch/German word for four is “vier,” pronounced like “veer to the left.” Vier is…well, it’s unusual, name-wise! But it’s a good sound and I think it works. You would of course be constantly explaining it, but people are likely to (1) understand and (2) like it.

Or I wonder if you could just call him Fourth. It has a good sound, if you say it out loud. It makes me think of the boy’s name Ford, which I like (Douglas Adams fan).

I think if it were me, I would go for a different sort of nickname, based on the name instead of on the ranking. Your husband’s rank gets all the cute nicknames, unfortunately for your future son. If I wanted a four-related name, though, my top choice is Fourth.

Does anyone else have nicknames of the sort we’re looking for, related to the number four?

I’ve been trying to figure out a way to handle it when parents write to let me know what they ended up naming the baby. I always change it in the post, but how to let you know which posts have been updated?

My mom had the genius idea of using TAGS, which usually I don’t use so hadn’t thought of. I’ll be using the tag/label “name update.” So in the righthand column of the blog, below the Blog Archive, there’s a category for “name update.” Click on that, and you’ll see all the posts that include the name the baby ended up with.

I’m also going to STOP writing “[Edited:…]” in the post titles. It was messy and not very helpful. I ALWAYS update each polled post with the poll results, so there’s no need to say so, and now we have a different method for marking the ones with the baby’s name updated.

Now. If you had us tackle a baby-name problem, and you’ve had the baby and named him/her, email me and tell me! We’re dying to know!

Linda writes:

Swistle, how ’bout a “Worst Thing Someone Ever Said to You About Your Child’s Name” post? Like the time my grandpa-in-law asked if we thought our daughter’s name was “appropriate for a little girl?” Um, YES, since she’s already BORN AND NAMED. Or my friend whose family REFUSED to call her son by his name because they didn’t like it. They just called him something else. I would love to read and fume about this topic.