Category Archives: name update

Baby Naming Issue: If You Promised Not to Use an Honor Name, Do You Have to Keep That Promise?

Melanie writes:

I have a name question, which, while having no urgency at all, has been driving me crazy for years. I am only trying to get pregnant (unsuccessfully), and therefore have no impending infant to name. However, if I am lucky enough to have a child, I am very set on family names or variations thereof. My grandmother was very important to me and she died when I was young. She always made me promise to never ever name a child after her, as she hated her name – Constance L@vonia. Now L@vonia is truly awful but Constance is something I would consider, at least as a middle name. I just can’t though – I promised. Can you think of an alternative? Some way to honor my grandmother AND her wishes? Thanks!

PS – Id consider HER mother’s name except its a) not really my style and b) has already been used in my generation as an honor name. Other names on that side of the family were names my great great grandmother found in books and then altered to make then unique…and therefore are atrocious. (M3rle, P@lma, Aud@…)

This is a very, very interesting question to me, and it’s going to be an all-over-the-spectrum comments section, I can tell!

Here are the questions/issues, as I see them:

1. Who owns a name?

2. Who is allowed to name a child?

3. Do people really mean it when they say not to use their names?

4. Once the person has died, should their wishes on “not wanting to hear their own name on a baby” still matter? If so: why? (And at which point do their wishes trump your wishes?—see #s 1 and 2.)

5. Should anyone force a child to promise something like that?

6. If a child promises something like that, are they bound to it as an adult?

Let’s start with numbers 5 and 6. I’m reminded of my high school boyfriend, whose deathbed-residing grandfather made him promise to name a son after him. My boyfriend promised, and felt bound by that promise. My feeling on the subject: “YOU WERE SEVEN YEARS OLD AT THE TIME. That was incredibly emotionally manipulative, and totally out of bounds, and completely arrogant and inappropriate of him to demand a namesake, and also it seems pretty chauvinistic because WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE MOTHER OF YOUR CHILD?? Doesn’t HER opinion count for anything?? ‘THE MAN’ gets to promise for both of them?? I THINK NOT!!”

Ahem. I might still be a bit steamed about it.

I think also of my mom’s grandmother, who was…er, enthusiastically involved with the Women’s Christian Temperance Union, and who made all her young grandchildren promise never to touch alcohol—and in fact made them SIGN A CONTRACT to that effect. Is my mother bound by that promise? Certainly not. She was not able to make a promise like that at her age (or to say no to making a promise like that), and my great-grandmother should not have asked her to.

Next I would like to turn attention to numbers 1 and 2, about who owns a name and about who is authorized to make the decision about what to name a baby. We’ve discussed name ownership before, mostly in the context of “Can you re-use a name a friend already used for her baby?,” and in general the idea is that names are many-time-use items (the friend wasn’t the first person to use it EITHER) (unless they actually WERE, but let’s keep this simple), but that we still might want to choose to go with other people’s preferences in the matter because the relationships (and the other people’s feelings) are important to us. But it’s also important to remember that this is because we are being LOVING AND CONSIDERATE PEOPLE (or because we fear conflict), not because we’re “not allowed” to “steal” a name. And what it boils down to is that there is no one who is designated caretaker of a particular name (not the parent of a child with that name, not someone who is named that name) who is allowed to decide who may and who may not use it. The name is available to any parent who wants to use it.

And I think we agree that the people who get to name the baby are that baby’s parents. Other people might give input or ideas, or might hope their family traditions are followed, or might even make the mistake of volunteering names they dislike—but the parents can completely ignore all of these suggestions. So although your grandmother could certainly have mentioned her preferences, she’s not actually allowed to name your future babies—or to tell you what NOT to name them, either.

To review where we are so far:

adults should not extract these sorts of promises from children
any such extracted promises are not binding
your grandmother is not in charge of how her name is used
your grandmother may not choose or forbid names for your baby

This all sounds rather harsh and anti-grandmother, doesn’t it? I don’t mean it to sound that way, or as if I think she was trying to do any of these things on purpose; however, I do think it’s important to separate things out so that we can move on to what your actual choices are.

This brings us to #3: Do people really mean it when they say not to use their names?

The thing is, people say stuff they don’t mean ALL THE TIME. We did a post recently that shows what I’m talking about: a woman wrote to us very distressed because she’d planned to name her baby after her dad—and then her dad (not knowing her plan) mentioned that he would “never forgive her” if she named a son after him. NEVER FORGIVE HER! That’s strong language! If her dad had then died before she named the baby, many many people would have said they felt very very strongly that his wishes should be respected. And yet: she talked to him about it and he was embarrassed about what he’d said, and he was surprised and flattered and very pleased when she said they wanted to name the baby after him. And so they did, and everyone was happy.

!!!!

That is, of course, not always going to be the situation. But my GUESS, my GUT FEELING, is that MOST of the time when people say they don’t want children named after them, they don’t actually mean that. Maybe they’ve just enjoyed many years of complaining about their name and this is another way to complain about it enjoyably, or maybe what they’re saying is “I hope you won’t feel like you have to use my name for a child”—but they’re thinking of their name in a different way than we would be. Someone named Henry in the last generation or two might have grown up thinking they had such a dorky, ugly, old-man name—please don’t name any babies after me! But now look: the name Henry is back in style and considered adorable and classic! The descendant doesn’t feel OBLIGATED to use it: they genuinely love the name and WANT to use it! They’re DISAPPOINTED that they have to “respect someone’s wishes”!

Meanwhile, if they went ahead and used it, the always-hated-the-name ancestor would likely suddenly discover they didn’t hate the name at all, and that they were intensely pleased and flattered to have it used. It might turn out that all those mentions of how much they hated their name were like when someone says “Excuse my house” or “I know I should dress more fashionably”: they don’t ACTUALLY feel bad about their house or their clothes, but they fear OTHERS are critical of them. Or they might be fishing for you to say you don’t think their name is so bad, or they might mean “Go ahead, twist my arm!”

So usually my suggestion would be to TALK to the person saying things about their name: be earnest, and say you’d actually really LIKE to use their name—would they truly hate that? Would it OFFEND them somehow, or is it just that they can’t believe anyone would want to use it?

But in your case, and in many similar cases, it isn’t possible to ask. Which brings us to our last point, point #4: Once a person has died, should their wishes on “not wanting to hear their own name on a baby” still matter? If so: why? Either those wishes are now as gone as the person who had them, or else it seems highly unlikely that such things are important in the person’s new eternal point of view.

Even if we imagine a person’s living earthly wishes persisting into eternity, at which point do another person’s wishes trump yours? I think the wish-trumping point comes down to this: Who was in charge of the decision/possession? My mother is in charge of her private journals; if she asks me to make sure they’re burned after she dies, I will do that: her wishes continue to matter after she dies. My grandmother is in charge of her earrings; I wouldn’t have fussed if she’d chosen to leave them to my cousin: her wishes continue to matter after she dies. I respect their wishes to do what they want with their own things, even after their lives are over.

But you are in charge of choosing your babies’ names, and so your love and respect for your grandmother aren’t affected by you going with your own wishes rather than following her wishes—any more than your love and respect for her would be changed by you choosing a different spouse, career, hobby, house, or piercing than she wished you to have. In this case, she would need to respect your wishes to do what you want with your own things.

To review where we are so far:

adults should not extract these sorts of promises from children
any such extracted promises are not binding
your grandmother is not in charge of how her name is used
your grandmother may not choose or forbid names for your baby
people don’t always mean what they say about not using their names
people’s wishes should be respected for their own decisions/possessions

So to me, what we have so far is pretty clear: you can name your baby whatever you want, including the name that your grandmother was named. And since she has died, this makes things both more difficult (because you can’t ask her if she really meant it, and likely find out to your happiness that she didn’t) and simpler (because she is not going to be angry and upset that you went against what she wanted).

It is, however, true that you can’t honor both your grandmother AND the wishes she said she had. It would honor her if you used her name (even if she truly didn’t want you to use it), but it would not honor her stated wishes. You will need to decide which is more important to you: honoring her through your child’s name as you’d like to do, according to your own wishes; or doing what your grandmother used to say she wanted you to do, when she was alive and had wishes.

For me, it would not be difficult: I would be using the name for my own sake, because I wanted to think fondly of my grandmother every time I thought of my daughter’s name, and because I wanted to say “You were named for my grandmother; I was very close to her.” And because in our culture, using someone’s name for a child is a way to show honor and love for someone, and I would want to do that. And because I would think it was unlikely that my grandmother would truly have been upset if I’d used her name for her dear great-granddaughter. I might feel glad that I wouldn’t have to be stressed about whether or not I was right about that—but I think I would also feel confident that if my grandmother could know what I had done, that she would at this stage of her existence be pleased by it.

Name update!

Hi Swistle,

I wrote to you some time ago about using my grandmother’s name, Constance, against her wishes. I had my daughter last year! I discussed my grandmother’s name with my husband, my grandfather (& his new wife), my dad (she was his mother), & my great-uncle (my grandmother’s younger brother). My husband was not a big fan, & neither were the men who knew my grandmother best, her husband and brother. My generation and my dad’s generation all thought it would be wonderful – & none of my relatives knew she had expressly forbade using her name! Apparently she only told me…

After 4 nameless days in the NICU, we named our daughter Cl@ire Suz@nne – a C name for my grandmother, & Suz@nne for my mother who was absolutely thrilled with a tiny namesake. I just kept thinking of my grandmother’s face when she told me not to name a baby after her and couldn’t do it. And my great-uncle told me when she was about 8 weeks old that Claire is a family name on their side as well, way way back somewhere!

Thank you for all of your help! Maybe we’ll be writing to you again in the future!

Melanie

Baby Boy or Girl Mall-with-an-H

36 Replies

Emily writes:

First, I’d like to butter you up a bit by saying I really love your blog. Well before we found out we were pregnant I read every word you wrote and have thought of your advice as the most objective and thorough naming advice on the internet. Which is precisely why we’re turning to you and your readers.

My name is Emily and my husband goes by William (it is his middle name). Our last name rhymes with ‘Mall”, starts with an H, and we’ve had to nix the use of “Carnegie” as a name, for obvious reasons. We do plan on having more children but our “number” is four. If we have less than that… splendid, but certainly no more than that. We’re having a baby of our own (due in October) and she has no name.

If we have a boy his name will be William Bradley and he will go by “Liam” as opposed to “Bill/Billy” or “Will/Willy”. He’ll be named after my husband and my father. We love honor names and plan to give our little girl the middle name “Mae”. It is her great-grandmother’s middle name just as I have my great-grandma’s middle name and so does my mother and hers. (I know it’s a mistake to choose a middle name first but with a tradition like that how could I not?) We have girl’s names that we like, but they all have reasons why we can’t (or won’t) use them. The other issue we’ve considered is that we’ll never know where our children will be growing up and so we can’t gauge name popularity in a particular region. We currently are in Doha, Qatar but who knows where we’ll be stationed next! I wish I could say “Avery is really popular in California… luckily, we’ll never go there. Let’s use it!”

Rather than prattle on about the agonizing I’ve been doing I’ll simply give you our list of can’t/won’t.

Reagan – this was the first name we loved and my husband decided it is a little sister name. So he vetoed it for use on our first girl. While I think he’s a bit odd, I won’t question his logic as long as we can use it in the future.

Avery Mae – I love this name. I think its a lovely name that pairs well with Reagan and Liam. I like the sound symmetry with my name but I just cannot get over how very popular it is. I don’t want her to be one of four Avery’s in her class. And even though I’ve heard the “If you love it, use it. Who cares how popular it gets?” advice… I can’t move past it.

Everly Mae – I love this name like I love Avery. The sounds, how gentle it is, and how unusual without being weird. We would call her “Evie” if we chose this name but I cringe when I think of our daughter spending her whole life going, “It’s Beverly, without the B”. It’s so feminine though and I do like the way it pairs with Liam.

Evelyn Mae – This name was a compromise after Everly. I like it, but I don’t love it. And really, just can’t imagine using it.

But that’s it. Those are all the girls names that we can come up with that we like and each one has a reason not to use it. Why on earth was a boy’s name so easy? Any advice or recommendations you could give would be sincerely appreciated. I am certain you and your brilliant readers can get us out of this mess. As you can see we are up a certain creek without any means of propulsion.

So if this baby is a girl, we are looking for a big-sister name for a Reagan or a Liam or both. It is fun to be looking for a name for an older member of a sibling group for a change!

I agree that Evelyn doesn’t seem right with Reagan. I suggest Avelyn instead. Avelyn Mae.

Instead of Avery, I suggest Averil. Far less common than Avery, and so pretty. It is maybe a little jokey with Mae (April May), but I don’t THINK that would bother me. I’d have to think it over more. It is a lot of L with the surname, and that WITH the April/May issue might together rule it out for me.

Waverly has a similar sound to both Avery and Everly. Waverly Mae.

My favorite, though, is Everly from your list. It’s quite feminine, but it’s also a surname name and goes well with Reagan. I don’t think I’d use the helper phrase “like Beverly but without the B.” I MIGHT say “like the Everly Brothers,” but I think the most likely is that I would just say it more clearly and/or spell it, as I would with a name that didn’t have a “like this, but that” helper.

If you decide against Everly, there’s Ellery. Ellery Mae. Is it too much L with the surname? It isn’t to me, but these things are subjective.

Or there’s Ellis, or Ellison. Ellis and Regan, Ellison and Reagan—those work as sister names, I think.

To move from El- to Em-, there’s Emery and Emerson.

Or Brinley, or Finley.

Or Delaney. Delaney, Liam, Reagan—I like those all together.

Name update! Emily writes:

Last night we named our little Halloween baby, and first son, William “Liam” Bradley Hall. He is absolutely perfect (and has the Apgar score to prove it). Thank you for your girl name recommendations; had Liam been a girl he would have been Eleanor Delaney Hall. Thank you so much for your help!

Baby Girl Ketler, Sister to Sloane Elinor

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J. writes:

Hi Swistle,

We are expecting our second baby girl in October and would love your help with her name. Her big sister is Sloane Elinor (her middle name is after my mother), and our last name is similar to Ketler.

We tend to like shorter names that are not overly feminine. “Brisk and breezy,” one might say. =) We also like Celtic names, but that’s not a must. One of my top priorities is to pick a name that’s not too preppy or unusual. We chose Sloane’s name because of its Celtic heritage and “female warrior” meaning (and because we love the sound of it!), but I know that to some people, it reads a bit preppy.

Our top names right now (with faves at the top) are:

Tess (love this name, but does it work with the repeating hard “e” sound in our last name?)
Brynn
Eve
Eden
Nina (love this name, but does it work with Sloane?)

Sydney
Stella
Maeve

Maren
Paige
Phoebe
Teagan

For middle names, we have a bit of a conundrum. Since we used my mother’s name for Sloane’s middle name, we’d love to use my husband’s mother’s name for our second daughter’s middle name. She is deceased, and we agree this would be a nice tribute. But (and it’s a big BUT) her name was Barbara, which neither of us love. Neither her middle name nor maiden name would work, and we can’t think of any other tribute other than Barbara… other than using a “B” name, but my husband feels like this is a stretch so we shouldn’t try to force it. In fact, he’s fine with not using Barbara since we don’t love the name; I am just trying to make it work since it’d be nice to honor both grandmothers in this way.

For some reason, the only names that seem to sound somewhat ok with Barbara to me are first names that end in “a,” like Nina or Stella. Somehow they roll off the tongue a bit more. For that reason we’d maybe consider Tessa as a full name, even though we both prefer Tess.

Our other middle name options (also after family members) are:

Marion
Veronica
Diane

To give you an even better idea of our naming style, if we had a boy, we would name him Grant, Reid, Davis, Roman, or Ronan, with the middle name Benjamin. That’s probably moot, though, as we’re pretty sure this is our last little one. (But you never know…)

I’d love to hear your feedback, and the thoughts of other readers. Thanks so much!

I agree it would be such a nice honor to use your husband’s mother’s name—but I also think if you don’t like the name and it’s messing with your first name options, that there are other nice ways to honor someone without using their name. I think in your shoes I would give up on the name Barbara, and maybe put up a photo of her in the nursery.

From your list, my favorites with Sloane are Brynn, Maeve, Paige, and Teagan. Paige emphasizes the prep factor, so that one might be out; Maeve most emphasizes the Celtic connection. I keep trying to choose a favorite from the non-Paige three, but I’m stuck. Sloane and Brynn. Sloane and Maeve. Sloane and Teagan. I like all three in different but equal ways.

Tess and Nina are the two you specifically draw attention to, so let’s turn to those next. Neither of them are ones I would have pulled from the list: both are great names, but seem so different from the style of Sloane.

Sloane and Nina seems a little N-heavy, but not as I say it more often I wonder if the N sounds may in fact help them coordinate better. Sloane Elinor and Nina Veronica is growing on me.

I’m trying out saying Tess Ketler, and I can’t decide about the short-E issue. I think for me it isn’t the short-E, but more the short-E combined with the shortness of the name and the S-ending. I don’t like the sound of it in my own mouth, and I don’t like the way the names run together (Tess Sketler, Tessket)—but these things can be so subjective, with the very next person saying that’s what makes the name so great. I think Tessa Ketler helps to resolve both problems, while still letting you call her Tess. And if using Tessa also makes Barbara more pleasing as the middle name, then it might be the perfect solution: Tessa Barbara Ketler. But I also love Tessa Diane and Tessa Veronica.

Just yesterday we discussed the name Louise (with the middle name Marion, even!), so it’s fresh in my mind. Like Sloane, it has a war-related meaning, and I think the names are an interesting combination. Louise Ketler; Sloane and Louise.

When I was looking up Louise, my eye fell on the name Quinn. For me it has some of the sound of a name like Tess, but with a style more compatible with Sloane. Quinn Ketler; Sloane and Quinn. Quinn Victoria would give the name a meaning compatible with Sloane’s (something like “leader in victory”) but unfortunately sounds like Queen Victoria. Quinn Marion or Quinn Barbara are probably my favorites.

So my favorites are Maeve, Teagan, and Brynn (plus Louise). What does everyone else like from the list?

Name update! J. writes:

Thanks to you and your readers for the help in our baby naming process. We went into the hospital with a few front-runner names and ended up deciding Eve Marion fit our new daughter best. We like how it sounds with our last name, we like it next to big sis Sloane Elinor, and we like the meaning (life). Marion was my great grandmother, who was a warm, spirited woman, and my husband and I are happy to give Eve, like Sloane, a middle name from their mom’s side of the family.

After a lot of name brainstorming, deliberation, and second-guessing, it took us a long time to arrive at Eve Marion… but we’re really happy we did.

Baby Girl Whittaker

33 Replies

Catherine writes:

Hello!

I recently found your blog, and love the idea of impartial naming help! My husband (Jeff) and I (Catherine) are expecting our first – a baby girl on July 14. We started discussing baby names before we were even pregnant. The only issue? We had no baby girl names… Baby boy name? Definitely checked off the list – Zeke Myers Whittaker (after my husband’s grandfather), which we still plan to use if we have a little boy at some point.

We went through a list of 4,000 girl names from the US Census – and in the end decided on the same two names we liked before going through all those names! Our long list included Clare, Maris, Meryl, Adele, Lucy, and Penelope. My husband really liked Kate (I thought it was too close to my name) and Caroline (I thought it was too popular). I really liked Evelyn (Evie for short) and Hazel, but he vetoed both.

In the end, we really just keep going back-and-forth between these two…

Alice Marion Whittaker

Louise Marion Whittaker

Marion is our frontrunner for the middle name, as it was my great grandmother’s name and I love the family significance. But what do you think about the first names? We like them because they’re different and a little quirky without being too unusual. Growing up as a ‘Catherine,’ it’s important to me to give our daughter a name where she won’t end up being one of 10 in her class. I also like that both names still feel classic.

Alice means ‘noble one’ and Louise means ‘famous warrior’ (a meaning that I love). I have liked the name Alice for years (and it is my family’s favorite between the two), but recently my husband suggested Louise. I love that we could call her Lou or Lulu (maybe even Louie?) – all adorable nicknames.

My main concerns: I’m just not sure if Alice is overplayed? I feel like there has been a lot of buzz around Alice recently, and I don’t know if it has become too popular. For Louise, I’m not sure if it is too quirky? Maybe a little old-lady-ish? (which I originally really liked about it, but have gotten a lukewarm to negative reaction from family about). One of my sisters even told me that Louise sounds like an ugly old lady.

We briefly considered Louisa and Eloise as similar sounding but more ‘modern’ versions of Louise – but we both decided that we couldn’t picture ourselves with a daughter named either one of those (maybe they’re just a little too modern/trendy for us?)

Lastly, I’m starting to worry that the answer isn’t either name? I keep waiting to be totally sure and have that a-ha moment, but I just feel so indecisive about naming her!

Any help would be so appreciated! I’d love to get your thoughts. Thanks so much for your help!

and

Sorry for another email, but we are almost 4 weeks away from our due date – and still without a name! We were pretty settled on Alice, but now know someone who recently (in May) named their baby Alice. It’s definitely not off the table, but it did cause us to reconsider.

We have recently revisited Lucy, Penelope (it’s my great grandmother’s name – but we’d call her Penny) and Jane.

We’ve also been seriously thinking of Hazel Grace. My maiden name is Hazle****t, so I thought it might be a fun nod to that? Or is that too far removed, since it’s just a part of my maiden name? We’ve been ‘testing out’ Hazel, but I’m just not 100% on it yet. Plus some family members have made it known that they really don’t like the name (although this is not a deal breaker for us, because I think they’ll get over it once she’s born).

We’ve also considered naming her Myers – a family name that was our middle name choice, if we were having a boy. My husband feels okay about that one, but he worries that it’s a little too different. We also have a large neighborhood in our city (and the school that she’ll most likely go to) with the name Myers in it.

Lastly, we’re no longer sold on a middle name – and considered using the previous middle name contender, Marion, as her first name? We’ve also been thinking of Grace or Elizabeth as possible middle names.

I’m starting to get worried about not having a name at all by her arrival – and even more worried about ending up with baby name regret because we couldn’t find one that we loved!

Any advice would be so appreciated!!

From your first letter, it sounds as if you had it narrowed down to Alice and Louise, and no amount of research was adding any further serious candidates. Then Alice was taken out of the running for you. So it sounds to me as if this brings you to Louise, but that last-minute jitters are setting in.

I think Louise Marion Whittaker is a wonderful name. It has long roots, it’s fun to say, it’s great with your chosen boy name, you love the meaning, you love the nicknames, and you’ve liked it consistently throughout this process. Your sister’s reaction tells me only that it’s time to stop asking for family input; it sounds like family input so far has made things more difficult for you, and I think you’re right they’ll come around to what you choose.

Hazel would also work well; it would give you a repeating Z if you had a Zeke later on, which can be a plus or a minus depending on your style. But it sounds like Hazel falls into the category of names you like but that don’t make it to the finalist list.

Marion seems like another good choice, if it feels like a finalist to you. But again, I’m getting the impression that this is more like anxious last-minute reshuffling/reconsidering, rather than a candidate.

Myers seems like an outlier name for you: a name you like that is not your usual style. Choosing it would make future name choices significantly more difficult (the other girl names on your lists wouldn’t work very well as sister names for a Myers), and may also later make you wish you hadn’t ruled out your perfect boy name.

If you weren’t particularly close to your great-grandmother (i.e., if you’re choosing her name from the family tree but not because you specifically want to honor her), I might like Hazle****t for the middle name instead, or Hazel. Or you could use any of the other considered names: Alice, Penelope, Caroline, etc.

Name update! Catharine writes:

Many belated thanks to you and your readers! Hazel Marion was born on 7/14, weighing 7 lbs and 14 oz.

Your input was incredibly helpful – although, she did end up being almost 12 hours old before she had an official name! We absolutely adore our sweet Hazel and her name – it just took some encouragement for us to tune out others! And, much as you said, our family has come around to loving her name also.

We definitely plan to use Zeke and Louise for future siblings. Thank you again – and hope this Christmas picture makes up for the overdue update!

Baby Naming Issue: A Name Like Jane, But Not Jane

63 Replies

Anna writes:

I am looking for a name like Jane, that isn’t Jane. Our last name starts with a J, and I dislike the alteration. Another name I like is Paige, but that won’t do, because of the “juh” sound. It doesn’t necessarily have to be one syllable, though I’m drawn to those. My three year old son’s name is Clark, and I find myself looking for the girl equivalent. Old-timey, sturdy, perhaps even a little dull the first time you hear it, but the coolness sneaks up on you?

It’s not a requirement, but I prefer names that don’t end in an “a” or an “ie” sound.

A name we’ve kicked around is Rose. But can a Rose be a tomboy? Can a Rose be a badass, superjock cop like her auntie? Could a Rose be a Senator? I’m interested on how you and the comment-ers read Rose.

Her middle name would be Gail or Louise after my mom, but for the perfect name, I would sacrifice this idea. Maybe my mother’s mother’s name, Gloria?

Thank you so much!

I think Rosie the Riveter did the name Rose a huge favor: now the name contains not only the associations of sweetness but also associations with strength and capability. I definitely think of it as a name with backbone, and it seems perfect for your idea of a name that is old-timey, sturdy, AND cool. Its familiarity as a middle name makes people overlook it, I think, but it’s much rarer as a first name. I love Rose Louise, and I love “Clark and Rose.” I am holding back my impulse to get PUSHY about it.

Another possibility is Eve. Ava is in fashion, and Eva is following—but there Eve sits on its own. Eve Louise; Clark and Eve.

A few years ago I encountered a baby girl named Ruth, and it has completely revolutionized the way I felt about the name. Before meeting the baby, my eyes would have skipped over the name completely (old-timey! sturdy! dull!); after meeting the baby, I felt actually STUNNED by my oversight. Ruth! Ruth Louise; Clark and Ruth.

I overheard a child at the store being called Faye, and I thought it really worked. Faye Dunaway gives the name the kind of glamor generally referred to as “Old Hollywood.” Faye Louise; Clark and Faye. Mae and Kaye are similar options.

Leigh is a name I’d like to see more often. It’s not great with the middle names (and in fact it seems like a challenging name to find middle names for), but I love it with Clark.

I’ve been starting to see Pearl on baby name lists, and I see it has just crossed into the Top 1000 as of 2007. Pearl Louise; Clark and Pearl.

Nell has the right current sound (Elle, Ella, Isabel), but is not being used. Nell Louise; Clark and Nell.

This will depend on your own community, but you know what name has shock value in my area? Mary. One of my children had a Mary in his class, and I was startled by it the entire year. I had thought if it like the name “John”: so generic as to be invisible. But as with the name John, on a CHILD it’s startling and fresh. Mary Louise; Clark and Mary.

Another possibility is Rosemary. My eye passes right over it—but then I think “Botanical! Lovely!” Clark and Rosemary.

I think Mabel would work. After the Mad About You couple named their baby Mabel, I would have expected a jump in popularity—but the name didn’t even get into the Top 1000. Mabel Louise; Clark and Mabel.

Just the other day I was thinking how the name Lynn is a name I’d place money on for a good solid comeback after it’s had a rest. The look of it makes people dismiss it, I think, but the sound is so pretty. Lynn Louise is so fun to say, and Clark and Lynn is unexpected and fresh.

Sally is one I think is nearly ready now. Sally Louise; Clark and Sally.

Many people say it was their love of the book Charlotte’s Web that led them to the name Charlotte, which makes me wonder why there has not been a similar popularity surge for the name Fern. It was on my name list, and was a name I would have liked to use for my daughter’s middle name (I sometimes go ahead and call her Elizabeth Fern anyway). I love it so much as I’m typing this, it’s pushing Rose out of the way. Fern Louise (*faint*)! Clark and Fern (*faint*)!

I think using Louise in the first-name position could have the effect you’re looking for. And Louise is one of my favorite names to say. Clark and Louise. Too close to Superman-reference Lois, though, or to explorers Lewis and Clark?

Name update! Anna writes:

She arrived September 18th and we decided to call her Margot Louise! It was down to Rose or Margot, and we loved both, but I found I felt sadder about not getting to use Margot than Rose, so that helped me decide. My husband liked Rose better all along, but came around when we came up with GoGo for a nickname.
Here she is!

Baby Naming Issue: Levi, LEE, and Eu-JEAN

21 Replies

Annie writes:

Hi Swistle! Long-time reader, first time question-asker :)

My husband and I are due with our first child in late November/early December. We had names picked out for a boy and a girl two days after we found out I was pregnant – Miriam Georgianna for a girl, and Levi Eugene for a boy. The first names are ones that we both just really like, and the middle names are family honor names that are important to each of us that we use. Actually, the middle names were decided upon before we were even married. Our last name sounds like UR-lick, but starts with an E.

Early ultrasounds have shown that there’s a high probability that this little one is a boy. We know that it’s still early and not set in stone, but our sonographer said he’d give us a 90% certainty that it’s a boy (but typically only gives it a 70% certainty at this stage). So the possibility of us having a little Levi Eugene is becoming more of a reality. When we picked the name Levi, we knew that there would be a connotation with jeans but it didn’t bother us. However, I realized a few days ago that his initials will be LEE, another brand of jeans. Also, Eugene sounds like “you-jean”….yet another jeans connection. So I guess what I’m asking is: is this name too…denim-y? My husband isn’t bothered by it, but he has a tendency to sweep concerns under the rug when he’s got his mind set on something, only to be bothered by it later (which he fully admits). I can’t decide how I feel about it. One moment I think it’s unusable, and the next I’m laughing at myself for overthinking it.

I know it’s still really early, and we have plenty of time to decide, but I’m afraid that if it turns out that we decide the whole denim thing is too wacky for us once we get closer to our due date, we’ll end up getting really stressed out about something that should be an enjoyable process. With the last two initials being -EE, we realized right away that we’d be challenged finding a first name that didn’t result in initials that spelled something silly-sounding or just downright mean. Some outside perspective would be really helpful, especially since we’re not planning on sharing the name with family or friends until after he’s born.

Thanks so much!

Oh dear: now that I’ve seen it, I can’t un-see it! Levi eu-JEAN! The initials LEE bother me less, but along with the other two things the initials do give the whole package a sort of final-blow feeling.

It sounds to me like the decision is going to be about what is more important to you for the first baby boy: using the name Levi, or using the honor name Eugene. The way you’ve written about it makes me fairly certain the middle name wins this round. (I would take some comfort in being possibly able to use Levi for a second boy.)

I would suggest Eli instead, but I’m not sure Eli Urlick feels nice to say, and the initials EEE are so distinctive I can’t figure out if they’re a plus (cool! fun! interesting!) or a minus (EEEEEEEEEEE!!).

Liam might be nice, and the LEE and Eugene together aren’t a problem to me without the Levi.

Milo keeps coming to mind, but I’m not sure it fits with the style you’re looking for, and it may not work with Miriam. Milo Eugene Urlick; MEE. Or Miles? Miles Urlick. I think that works better with Miriam than Milo does.

Louis has some of the gentleness of Levi. Louis Urlick.

Or Leo? Leo Urlick.

Or Jacoby. Jacoby Urlick; JEE.

Well, or you may not really need suggestions at this point. Many people wait to find out the sex of the baby before starting the name search, and there is still time to look for another name you like. From us I think what is needed is a poll, for the group perspective/feedback you can’t get from friends/family. Let’s have one over to the right. [Poll closed; see results below.]

Levi

Name update! Annie writes:

Just wanted to thank you again for posting my question about my son’s potential future name last summer. We ended up naming our little guy Levi Eugene after all, and couldn’t be happier with the name we chose. It turned out that Levi was definitely his name all along, and during his incredibly emotional naming ceremony (we’re Jewish) the week after he was born it became crystal clear that Eugene was the best middle name we could have given him. We definitely understand that his name in its entirety is kind of denim-y, but it really hasn’t come up at all – unless one of us (my husband or I) brings it up. Thank you again for your help, and to everyone who commented! It was super helpful to “hear” a variety of reactions before we named our son!

Baby Naming Issue: The Pronunciation of Vivienne

38 Replies

Megan writes:

I am 37, almost 38 weeks, pregnant with our second (and final) babe- a little girl. We are 90% settled on calling her Vivienne, nn: Viv or Vivie, but I am feeling nervous about which spelling we should choose. My dilemma is this…my husband, bless him, feels very strongly that we should not share our name choice or even finalists with anyone we know- a combination of not wanting to be judged, wanting to give people a surpise (since we’ve shared everything else about the pregnancy to date) and just wanting to make sure that this is “her name” when we meet her. I am more or less on board with this plan, but it makes it hard to get feedback along the lines of…does this work? is this weird? etc. Which is why I’m coming to you and your readers…

My question is, do people generally percieve a disctinct difference between the pronouciation of Vivienne and Vivian? I prefer the first spelling, but would want to pronouce it: “VI-vee-uhn”, which I think may be more associated with the spelling Vivian? I guess what I’m wondering is, is the French spelling only associated with the French pronouciation, or can it go both ways (as I hope). I prefer the French spelling for a number of reasons: I studied and speak French, I think it’s prettier/more feminine and I feel like that spelling is potentially more versatile/recognized in other cultures. I worry though that, since she’s growing up in the US, she will spend lots of time explaining the spelling/pronouciation difference, “Yes, with an E-N-N-E, but it’s pronouced VI-vee-uhn not vi-ve-EHN” Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? My first name is Megan, and I frequently have to specify that it is spelled without and H or other extra vowels…and it really doesn’t bother me. Anyhow, I would love to hear what other folks think. Maybe a poll?

Thanks much!

Oh! I have wondered this TOO! I see Vivienne and I hear it in my mind “viv-vee-EN”—but I am aware that people are using both pronunciations, so if I encountered a Vivienne out and about, I’d expect it to be pronounced either like that or like Vivian (VIV-vee-en). The Baby Name Wizard’s listing for Vivienne shows both pronunciations.

So yes, I agree with you that you could use the spelling you prefer combined with the pronunciation you prefer, and that the hassle level would be comparable to your experience with the name Megan or mine with the name Kristen: not a huge deal, just something we’ve gotten accustomed to dealing with when it’s a name with more than one spelling/pronunciation. If the name Vivienne continues to increase in popularity, that will help her out as well.

Let’s have a poll, too, because I’m still interested to know how many people would think of Vivienne as being pronounced only the French way, and how many think of it like the name Madeline (i.e., aware of two possible pronunciations, as in the middle three poll options). (Sorry the poll options are so LONG! It proved challenging to put those concepts succinctly!) [Poll closed; see results below.]

Poll results for “The Pronunciation of Vivienne:” (508 votes total):

I would say it French and be surprised if it were like Vivian – 144 votes (28%)
I would first guess French, but wouldn’t be surprised if it were like Vivian – 163 votes (32%)
I would expect either pronunciation – 79 votes (16%)
I would first guess like Vivian, but wouldn’t be surprised if French – 87 votes (17%)
I would say it like Vivian and be surprised if French – 35 votes (7%)

Name update! Megan writes:

Many belated thanks to you and your readers for weighing in on our spelling/pronunciation conundrum…hopefully this extra cute fall photo makes up for the belated update! Born on the 4th of July, it’s hard to believe our Vivenne Leymah is 5 months old already. We decided to stick with our guns on the spelling of Vivienne, but are surprised to find ourselves pronouncing it more like the spelling (vi-vee-ehn), though usually, we just call her Vivie.

Baby Girl Wreath-with-a-C, Sister to Tr!ll!@n; Are the Sibling Names Too Close?

38 Replies

A. writes:

Hi Swistle! I’ve been reading your name blog ever since I found out I was pregnant with #2. Our baby girl is due in October and we’ve narrowed it down to 2 first names we like. So far so good, right? We’re ahead of the game.

However, the name we love is very similar to our first daughter’s name and I’m wondering if it’s *too* similar, or too close to rhyming.

Our last name rhymes with Wreath and starts with a C sound. Our daughter’s name is Tr!ll!@n M!r@ (replace ! with i and @ with a, of course).

The name we love for the new baby is Mer!d!@n. We don’t have a middle name yet, but it’ll be something Indian, to honor my side of the family. I’m not worried about finding a suitable name that “matches” with the first name – that part is easier for us.

The name we like, but not as much is Winter. Hubby and I don’t agree on many names, so the fact that we both like this one is already a big deal. But it doesn’t have the WOW factor that the other one did for us.

My question is whether Mer!d!@n is just too similar to Tr!ll!@n? They’re both 8 letters and have the same ending. But I like that they “go together” without being exactly rhyming, or the same first letter, etc. I’d love to know what the readers think?

We’re still open to other choices but want a name where we’re both thinking “WOW, that’s IT!” which is what we did with our first daughter’s name, and also feel about Mer!d!@n.

Our preferences are:
1. No question about pronunciation when you see it written
2. Nothing ending in a C, K, or X sound
3. Not on the SSN Top 1000 list, or very, very low :)

Thanks for your help!

My first reaction was that they were too close, and that the rhythm of the two names together made the problem even more noticeable: it called to mind the “Finnegan (begin again)” part of the song Michael Finnegan.

But there are tons of sibling-name sets out there that I would put in a similar category on first hearing them (too close! too far! rhyming! a sibling noticeably different from the others! oh no, a STYLE CLASH!)—and yet, with the exception of, at most, a fresh explanation each time the sibling names come up to a new audience (“Yes, Faith, Hope, and Kayla—I guess my parents didn’t want to use Charity”), it doesn’t seem like the kind of issue that will be a terrible ordeal for anyone.

Not only does it not have to be a deal-breaker, many parents do it ON PURPOSE—and many other people love it when they encounter it. While many parents with a daughter named Lily are saying, “Well, pooh: now that rules out Rose and Ivy and Violet,” many others are saying “I want to continue the floral/botanical theme—how about Rose or Ivy or Violet?” While some people will be startled at hearing siblings named Chloe and Zoe, others will be saying, “That is SO CUTE, I LOVE it!”

After looking at these examples for awhile (as well as at the twin-name section of the Social Security site: so many Jada/Jaden pairings!), and then looking back at Tr!ll!@n and Mer!d!@n, I feel like they aren’t too close at all. Yes, they share ending sounds, and saying them together may draw people’s attention to that. But that doesn’t seem like such a bad thing. It seems like a tiny thing compared with finding a name that is exactly what you want.

Name update! A. writes:

Our October baby was born on Monday and is healthy, happy, and awesome. (Newborns are so much less nervewracking the second time!)

Her name is Meridi@n Rayn@. Thanks so much to you and your commenters for all the great input!

Cheers!

Baby Girl Sowder; Narrowing Down a List

21 Replies

Nicolette writes:

Our first baby is due in September & baby naming has turned into a full-blown obsession for me! We found out it’s a girl so at least that narrows it down. I am driving my husband crazy, so I thought it was time to get some professional help :) A few things – Sowder is my husband’s last name & will be the baby’s also. Antoinette is my mother’s name and we would love to use it as the middle name if possible, but we’re flexible. Also, we tend to like names that are unique, or a little older sounding & potentially inspired by nature (but that’s not a must).

Here are some of my rejected names or at least names I have moved away from somewhat:

Scarlett Louise Sowder (my husband’s favorite)

Nickname: LettieLou

Magnolia June Sowder

Nickname: Lia or Maggie

Here is my current list:

Etta June Sowder

Cora Antoinette Sowder (one of my favorites)

Ophelia Antoinette Sowder

Nickname: Lia

Juniper Marie Sowder (also like this one a lot)

Nickname: Juni

Ellamae Sowder

Nickname: Ella

Thanks so so much – we’re not closed off to anything (even a completely new name not on the list) and welcome any guidance from you and the community.

I think this is one of the hardest stages of baby-naming: the list has been made, but nothing is leaping out as the obvious favorite. This is the stage where I like to do little naming exercises and games, to see if I can narrow in on what I really want. I also find it helpful to go into it remembering that no matter WHAT name I choose, it means not-choosing all the others: there will be a sad, letting-go feeling even if we choose the name that is the best one; it’s not an indication that we’re making the wrong choice.

One of my favorite exercises/games is Sibling Names. If you choose an unusual name with a literary tie-in, like Ophelia, are there sibling names you can picture using, or will you run into trouble? If Ella and Etta are too similar for you to want to use them for sisters, and so using one of the names will rule out the other name, which name do you prefer? If you want to use Lia as a nickname for Ophelia, would that rule out using Magnolia (Lia) for a future daughter? Things like that.

In a related game, I like to pair up similar names from the list and see which ones sound most like Our Family. Even if we might not use other names from the list for future children, or even if we might never have another girl, or even if we’re not planning more children—it can still help to focus things. Which sounds more like Your Family: sisters named Magnolia and Juniper? sisters named Etta and Cora? sisters named Juniper and Scarlett?

And there are the tricks in the post Choosing Between Two Finalists, which also work for more than two finalists. Some of these will require participation from the other parent, but some of them can be done on your own if one of you has a greater interest than the other in such exercises.

When Paul and I got down to seven candidates for Henry’s name, we each ranked the seven names to see if there were any we both had at the bottom of the list. But we didn’t do a plain 1-7 ranking: we could assign the same ranking to as many names as we wanted. So for example, one of you might have this:

1. Scarlett
2. Etta, Ellamae
3. Juniper
4. Cora
5. Ophelia, Magnolia

And the other one might have this:

1. Cora, Juniper
2. Etta, Ellamae
3. Ophelia
4. Scarlett, Magnolia

Looking at the two sets of rankings side by side, you might think, “Well, we both have Ophelia and Magnolia below the top three, so let’s try striking those two. And if one of us has Scarlett first and the other of us has it last, it’s not likely to be The Name. But we both have Etta and Ellamae and Juniper in our top three, so let’s see if it makes us happy to make those the three finalists now.” It is important to remind less-enthusiastic baby namers such as Paul that this does not mean the others are ACTUALLY eliminated. They MIGHT be eliminated, but it’s more of a practice elimination to see how you feel about those names no longer being candidates. It can happen that as soon as one gets knocked out, you realize you like it better than you thought. Or it can happen that as soon as a name is in the top three, you realize you’re not really willing to use it. But it can also actually narrow things down: we found we had several names that we both liked, but that neither of us liked better than the other names on the list, and it was a relief to cross those out and have fewer names to consider. Getting down to the top three made me feel like we now had a solvable problem instead of an impossible math equation.

Imagine announcing the name to others: friends, family, internet. Do you feel particularly glad to imagine any of the options? particularly uncertain about any of the options? Do any of the names feel like a name you’d love if someone else used, but the name doesn’t actually fit with your family?

Imagine having each of the names as your own name; picture introducing yourself to someone else. Are there any where you wouldn’t really want to have the name? Any you’d particularly love to have?

Imagine the names on a backpack, on a school desk, being told to a parent/child on the playground who asks. When you’re out in public, look at a variety of different people (well, female people!) and imagine the names on each one. Imagine arriving for an appointment at the pediatrician, saying “This is ______, she has a 9:30 appointment.” Imagine the names on a receptionist, a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, a check-out clerk, a landscaper. Imagine them on someone plain and plump with glasses. Imagine them on someone in math club, in drama club, in cheerleading, on the soccer team. Imagine them on your various relatives. Do any names seem like a better/worse fit than any others?

Say the names in different ways. A middle name can make the first name and last name sound great together—but most of the time the name will be just first-last, and does it also sound good like that?

Deliberately taking a break can also help. If you say to yourselves, “We will put this topic on a shelf for two weeks,” you may find that during that time one of the finalists will float to the top on its own. Perhaps you’ll catch yourselves thinking of the baby by a certain name, or having a slightly negative reaction to one of the names.

It can also help to see how you react to other people’s opinions. When people in the comments section say which names they like best, do you find yourself rooting for certain names? feeling disappointed when other names seem to take the lead? feeling extra-protective of certain names? If I say that I like Magnolia best, and that I particularly like the rhythm of Magnolia Sowder, does that have an effect either way? (I would use Antoinette as the middle name: I love family names, I love long names, etc.) All these feelings can help.

Let’s have a poll over to the right, too, to see which names you’re hoping will win! [Poll closed; see results below.]

Sowder

Name update! Nicolette writes:

Hi!

This is embarrassing because my daughter was born almost eight months ago, but I wanted to give you an update.

Thank to you and the community’s help, we’ve chosen the name: Cora Antoinette Sowder!

Thanks again!

Baby Girl or Boy Fable, Sibling to Sawyer Benjamin

24 Replies

Jocelyn writes:

After perusing dozens of baby names websites, I have officially decided that yours is THE ONE source for thoughtful, genuine feedback. I would really appreciate any help you can offer with naming my second child due this winter (boy or girl TBD!)

My name is Jocelyn and my husband’s name is Brian (last name sounds like Fable). We currently have an adorable two year old boy named Sawyer Benjamin. It took forever to finally agree upon a name for him, mostly because my husband kept throwing out ridiculous names, perhaps trying to make me laugh more so than trying to name our baby! When he found the name Sawyer, I immediately loved it (plus the fact that my husband actually suggested a real name). Despite constantly being asked if we watched the show Lost or if it was a family name, neither applied to us. I just love how it is an unusual name but easy to pronounce. Now, the work begins all over in trying to find a sibling’s name…

Girl names: I’m open to suggestions, but have always loved the name Madeline for a girl. My husband quickly agreed on this one, so the trick would be just to find a middle name. I don’t want it to sound too Southern (like Maddie Sue) but I do want it to flow. Possible Madeline Leigh? The spelling of this name has also caused me some concern- should be pronounced like Madelyn, but that spelling looks too close to my name, and Madeleine suddenly looks like too many letters to me (and this was supposed to be the easy name!)

Boy names: now the fun begins. I do like surnames, but not ones that are too common, such as Jackson. That brings me to my surname, Reed, which I could totally live with if I could just convince my husband… Another name that caught my eye was Ryland, but it would take some getting used to and I’m wondering if it’s too close to Brian (as is Brennan, another favorite of mine). Bennett seemed like a really nice name to me, but I just get the feeling that it has a little bit of femininity to it. I somewhat like Hudson, but not sure if I could really get used to that one, either. In a nutshell, we’re looking for a name just as uncommon as Sawyer but not too “out there”. Please help!! :)

I suggest using the Madelyn spelling. I think it’s fine (nice, even) that it shares an ending with your name, and it’s the best spelling for making your pronunciation clear. We had a cat named Madeline for a few months, and it was eye-opening to me that no one at the shelter or vet’s office was ever sure how to pronounce it. I was grateful that it was a cat and so we could easily make the decision not to care or correct pronunciation—but typically, each person would ASK each time: “Let’s see, today…Madda-lynn, Madda-lyne?…is getting two shots.” “Let’s schedule the next appointment for…Madda-lynn, Madda-lyne?”

For middle names, I think a lot of names would work well: Madelyn June, Madelyn Grace, Madelyn Ruth, Madelyn Rose, Madelyn Joy. To tone down the “Maddie Sue” flavor, I’d go with something multi-syllable: Madelyn Sophia, Madelyn Elizabeth, Madelyn Julia, Madelyn Olivia, Madelyn Rebecca. It would be a good place for a name that you wanted to use for the first name, but couldn’t because of some reason that wouldn’t matter for a middle name (problem with initials, too similar to a family member’s name, didn’t go well with Sawyer, not your usual style, etc.).

I wish I could pressure your husband to accept Reed for a boy. Not only is “mother’s surname as child’s first name” one of my top favorite naming ideas, but it works out so exceptionally well in this case! Sawyer and Reed! Perfect!

If not, here are some more possibilities (I basically went treasure-hunting in the “Last Names First” section of The Baby Name Wizard):

Anderson
Archer
Davis
Easton
Everett
Flynn
Harrison
Jacoby
Jameson
Lawson
Marshall
Miller
Mitchell
Nicholson
Redford
Thompson
Turner
Wilson

Perhaps your surname could be the middle name: Wilson Reed Fable, or Anderson Reed Fable, or Everett Reed Fable.

Or you could use one of the names you liked but didn’t quite want to use in the first name slot: Archer Brennan Fable, or Lawson Bennett Fable.

Or you could match the style of Sawyer’s middle name and use something like Davis Christopher Fable or Turner Jonathan Fable.

Name update! Jocelyn writes:

Thank you again for your input. We recently welcomed little brother Reed Wheeler to our family! (Reed being my maiden name and Wheeler my husband’s father’s middle name- a family name going back for centuries). Sawyer loves his new baby brother!