Author Archives: Swistle

Baby Boy or Girl Smith

Hi there,

My husband and I have a looming due date (May 29) and we’re at an impasse with girls names! We’re not finding out the gender of our forthcoming little one and have decided that if we have a boy, he’ll be John Owen (and we’ll call him Owen).

Our last name is Smith, so we are somewhat limited to choosing names that don’t end in ‘s’ as we both feel that we don’t want the first and last names running together. Sad though, because that eliminates some of the names we like.

That said, we’re on pretty opposite ends of the spectrum with names that we like. My husband like liquid letters and Norwegian-inspired names. Here are some he’s rooting for:

Karen (pronounced Car-en)
Kiersten
Lilly/Lillian
Ellie/Elle
Ellen
Emma
Sophia

I, on the other hand, tend toward more of the classic grandmother names. I’m pretty wary of overly popular names as well. On the top of my list are:

Edith (not doable with the last name), but with the nickname “Edie”
Eliza/Liza
Evelyn/Everly (nickname “Evie”)
Mae (after my grandmother)
Maeve (love this Irish name as we spent our first year of marriage living there)
Eva/Ava/Aoife (prounced like “Ava” but with an “f” sound instead of a “v”, also Irish)
Frances
Louise
Herriot (for a middle name perhaps)
Rosalyn
Liesel
Miriam
Greer

Where we overlap:

Hannah – I like, but don’t love
Piper – same as above
Lane/Laney – doesn’t feel like the one, but I like
Eve (pronounced to rhyme with Bev)*
Joules

*Eve seems to be our most viable options at this point because we both like it. I just don’t want to have the name be mispronounced as Eve (rhyming with Steve) and my husband doesn’t like any of the longer forms of a name that would be shortened to produce the nickname.

So, gosh, we’d love some outside perspective and any feedback you’re able to give!

Thanks kindly,
Cory Smith

 

The name “John Smith” is a very bold choice. (For those of you thinking, “But…!”: those are exactly the things that make it a bold choice.) Is John a family name? Why are you planning to call him by his middle name? That sort of thing can help us get a handle on your overall naming preferences and priorities, even though you aren’t asking for help with a boy name.

In the U.S. English language, the correct/standard pronunciation of the name Eve is the one that rhymes with Steve. The level of hassle you would encounter to get it pronounced to rhyme with Bev would be significant and lifelong. The information we’re missing here is your reason for wanting the name pronounced differently. For example, is it a namesake name, or a name from another country/language where it is pronounced like Ev? In the U.S., if you want it to rhyme with Bev, I would strongly suggest spelling it Ev: it’s an existing name with the pronunciation you prefer. If you spell it Eve, I think you will have to reframe the situation in your mind: if you think of people as mispronouncing it when they use the usual pronunciation, I think you will quickly lose your minds with frustration. To save your sanity, you will need to accept that the pronunciation you prefer is the one that would be considered a mispronunciation in U.S. English, and let that infuse your standard explanation with patient, cheerful understanding: “Oh, actually it’s pronounced Ev. She’s named for my Irish grandmother, and that’s how it’s pronounced there”—or whatever the reason is.

Along the same lines, the pronunciation KARE-en is so common and widespread in the U.S., and there are so very many Karens (the name was Top 100 from 1938 until 1986), I think trying to get people to pronounce it CAR-en would be exhausting. I am not sure what spelling to recommend for the pronunciation you’d prefer. Karren? No, that looks like a typo. Carren? Hm. Carin? Maybe, but that seems more like a spelling of Corinne. None of those seem ideal to me. Perhaps commenters will have some suggestions. (I would suggest the name Corinne, but it’s so similar to Cory. For that matter, so is Karen-pronounced-CAR-en.)

You have lived in Ireland for a year and so I think it’s best if I assume you have better information than I do about this, but I want to raise the point as one that may need more investigation: I was pretty sure Aoife was not pronounced like Ava-with-an-f, but instead like Eva-with-an-f: EE-fa. My daughter is acquainted with an Aoife whose parents’ families are both from Ireland, and they pronounce it EE-fa. My working theory about the possible explanation for this is that the long-E/long-A sound is not quite a direct translation from Irish, and so some people fall to more of an E-sound and others to more of an A-sound.

The spellings Herriot and Joules catch my eye in a list of traditionally-spelled options. Unless you have specific reasons for the alternate spellings, I suggest using the standard Harriet/Jules. I think the name Harriet Smith is terrific.

From your joint list, my top choices are Piper and Lane/Laney. Lane Smith seems like a dashing and unusual choice, while still being easy to spell and pronounce. I might instead consider the spelling Laine, with the nickname Lainey. According to the Social Security Administration, the spelling Lane was given to 1,224 new baby boys and 85 new baby girls in 2016; the spelling Laine was given to 30 new baby boys and 92 new baby girls in 2016. (The name Piper was used nearly exclusively for girls.)

A similar option is Delaney, used for 9 new baby boys and 1,198 new baby girls in 2016.

Or I wonder if you’d like Elaine with the nickname Lainey? It’s a grandmother name, and very similar to Ellen and Lillian from your husband’s list.

The name Hannah may be more popular throughout the population than you’d prefer: it is only recently out of a dozen years in the Top 10.

From your husband’s list, my favorite is Ellen. It’s currently uncommon (#655 in 2016) but has the fashionable Ell- sound.

With the surname Smith, I am more than usual on the side of staying away from popular names. Emma and Sophia are both in the Top 10 as of 2016; Emma has been there since 2002 and Sophia since 2006. Kiersten is much less common (not even in the Top 1000 as of 2016), but is more Mom Name than Grandmother Name.

From your list, my favorites are Eliza, Mae, Rosalyn, and Miriam.

It seems as if the two of you are so close with his Ellie/Elle/Ellen/Emma and your Eliza/Evelyn/Eva. Your husband doesn’t like any of the Ev- names, but I would explore further in the Em- and El- categories. Elodie? Emmeline? Elena? Eleni? Eleanor? Elianna? And have you already tried your husband on Evelina, pronounced ev-ah-LEEN-nah? It’s similar to several of his choices, and gives you the Ev. Evelina Smith.

Or I wonder if you two would like Genevieve? It has the Ev/Eve/Ava/Eva type of sounds, but it’s less common. Or Geneva? or Vienna?

Baby Girl A., Sister to Sawyer Beatrice

Hi Swistle,

We’re quickly approaching baby #2’s due date and are lost on what to name her. Our second daughter is due on May 30th (though, I anticipate she’ll be a few weeks early, due to a few complications I’m experiencing.) We have a 3-year-old named Sawyer Beatrice (Beatrice is a family name) – we went into the hospital with 25 names when she was born, and I was certain she would be named Grey. 4 days later, hubby convinced me that his choice of ‘Sawyer’ would be a perfect name for a life we hope is filled with adventure. Of course it fits her perfectly now.

Our last name starts with an ‘Abe’ and ends in -son, and if we were having a boy, favorites would include Crew + Grey. We’ve agreed upon two names so far for girls: Finley and Wren. We were pretty close to deciding on Finley, when my hubby realized there were far too many people in his office with little Finley’s at home, so that name is hanging in limbo. While we like Wren, we just haven’t fallen in love with it, so we continue the search. We are open to a middle name, likely something feminine knowing that we’ll choose a first name that is unisex to align with Sawyer, though the family name Kathryn is a strong option for the middle name.

Other names we’ve discussed:

Rowan (I love, husband ruled out for both girls as he has a business partner with a son Rowan)
Milo (hubby does not like)
Luca (just used by good friends for a boy)
Malou (hubby keeps singing “skip to Ma-lou” when we discuss)
Winter, nn Winnie (hubby’s choice, I do not like it)

As you can see, we like unisex names, though nothing overly popular for both genders (especially the Charlie’s, Riley’s and Alex’s). I also like the idea of connecting the sib-set with the ‘w’ or ‘y’ in the name, though definitely not tied to this idea. Because of our last name, I’m trying to avoid first names stating with ‘A’ (as initials would be ‘AA’) and any names that end in -son. As an avid reader of your helpful advice since trying to choose my first daughter’s name, I would certainly love your take on ideas for baby girl #2.

Sincerely,
Nicole

 

I think I might start here by finding out exactly how many Finleys are involved in your husband’s office: if you both love and agreed on the name, and it seems to me a near-perfect choice with Sawyer, it would be a shame to cross it off the list unnecessarily. There definitely can be little pockets of a name, but are we talking ten co-workers with children named Finley, or are we talking two? I remember one day when I was pregnant with William and we’d already chosen his name, I took toddler Robert for his two-year check-up and then to have his two-year portraits done—and there was a baby William in each waiting room! I went home in a panic, telling Paul we couldn’t use that name. But…it was only two Williams total. It just FELT like a lot of Williams because of the coincidence, and because I was highly sensitive to hearing that name once we’d chosen it.

But if we’re talking a truly surprising number of baby Finleys, I can see how that might take the shine off the name. For other possibilities to consider, I’d look for another unisex and/or surname name, ideally one used more often for boys (according to the Social Security Administration, the name Sawyer was used for 1,272 new baby girls and 4,213 new baby boys in 2016):

Baxter
Beckett
Bennett
Brady
Brecken
Callan
Carter
Chandler
Channing
Colby
Collins
Crosby
Declan
Elliott
Ellis
Emmett
Emory
Flynn
Hollis
Keane
Keegan
Lennox
Lachlan/Locklyn
Logan
Merrill
Merritt
Miller
Padgett
Presley
Quincy
Reeve
Sterling
Teague
Tiernan
Tyler
Winslow
Yates

It’s a little tricky: so many surnames end in -son (duplicating your surname) or -er (duplicating the sibling name). I left a few of the -er names in because there are just SO MANY, it seemed wrong to rule them out entirely—but sometimes the resulting pairing makes me think of the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. For example, I thought Miller might be a great candidate, but does “Sawyer and Miller” sound like two side-by-side shops in the village?

I particularly like the idea of Winslow. It’s similar to your husband’s choice of Winter/Winnie, and to your choices of Rowan and Milo.

 

 

 

Name update:

I don’t think a follow up ever got posted here… for those wondering, we went with Quinn for our second baby girl to big sister Sawyer. It took three days after she was born to name her, at which point we still couldn’t choose and narrowed it down to two and let big sister pick. In the end, it fits her perfectly of course. I still think of this name list from time to time, and how it really helped me narrow down what names I liked, brought fresh ideas even after a long search, and confirmed that in the end I would figure out the perfect name for my daughter. This list was an important stop on the journey to meeting our girl. Thanks to all for the suggestion, and especially to Swistle!

Baby Girl Catrell

My husband and I are struggling to name our first baby, a girl, due on May 1, 2018.

We have three names that we have both liked but are not 100% committed to any of them.

I generally prefer somewhat traditional names with family ties, and my husband likes names that sound a bit more sophisticated than I would choose.

Our last name sounds like Catrell. These are the three names we have both agreed as potential contenders:

Kathryn Mae nn: Kay
My husband’s mother is named Kathryn and we liked the way it sounded with Mae. My grandmother’s name is Kay, which I think is sweet, but my husband can’t picture calling a little girl.

Sally
We both LOVE the name Sally but are struggling to find a middle name that doesn’t sound too southern when paired with Sally. It is also the name of my great aunt.

Lily Ann
I suggested this to my husband, and he didn’t mind it, so we added it to the list.

Some more names I like:
Beatrice
Liv
Holly

Some names my husband likes:
Stella
Maeve
Victoria

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Mairzy

 

I immediately seized upon Sally. I love that name and would love to see it more in use. I think the key to avoiding the southern sound is to pick a serious, longer, non-bouncy middle. Sally Kathryn. Sally Elizabeth. Sally Margaret. Sally Eleanor. Sally Rachel. Sally Veronica. Sally Rebecca. Sally Juliet. Sally Josephine. Some of those would still lend themselves to the southern sound if you/she later wanted it: Sally Kay, Sally Kate, Sally Beth, Sally Jo, etc. Another option would be to put a surname in the middle: your maiden name or another family surname.

But I also love the idea of Kay. In the past few months I’ve gotten to know a woman named Kay, and I can personally attest to the pleasingness of the name: I like to say it, I like to see it, I like to hear it. It’s a name I’d wondered about before, but I’d never encountered a Kay and thought maybe in usage the name would sound like K. or ‘kay, but so far it doesn’t. It sounds sweet but not diminutive. I like the idea of naming her Kay directly (with a different middle name), instead of as a nickname for Kathryn, especially if the child’s surname is your husband’s: using your grandmother’s name instead of your mother-in-law’s name gives the full name a little more family balance.

If you decide to go with Kathryn but your husband isn’t sold on Kay, I suggest the nickname Kit.

I’m reluctant to find you any more ideas, because I am so keen on you using either Sally or Kay—and since I don’t know the family tree, I can’t help you push your case for family names, which is something I would dearly like to do. But I will force myself to come up with some names anyway.

Sally makes me think of Molly and Polly.

Liv and Stella make me think of Sylvia/Silvia/Silvie.

Maeve and Kay make me think of May/Mae. It’s fairly common as a middle name, but fresh and surprising as a first name.

“Fairly common as a middle name, but fresh and surprising as a first name” makes me think of Rose.

Liv and Maeve and Lily and Holly make me think of Ivy. That’s another name I’d really like to see more of.

Lily and Victoria make me think of Lydia.

I wonder if you two would like Josephine/Josie for a nice mix of sophistication and friendliness.

Oh, or would you like Alice? Sound-wise, it’s almost a rearranged Sally.

Or Flora would be pretty and unusual without being difficult to spell or pronounce.

Baby Boy or Girl Rhymes-with-Pitt, Sibling to Broderick (Brody) and Thompson (Tommy)

Hi Swistle!

I am expecting my third child late summer. It’s going to be our last! We aren’t going to find out the sex beforehand, but are having some serious issues with either boy or girl names – help!

Our last name starts with a “Shm” sound and rhymes with Pitt. I am really not a fan of first names that end in “S” in general because of how it pairs with our last name.

We have two boys:
Broderick Anderson (Brody)
Thompson Abraham (Tommy)

As you can see, we are a fan of last names as first names. This third baby will have the middle Dean no matter what (in honor of my Grandma whose name was Willa Dean).

We have considered Theodore for a boy, but recently nixed it because between the two of us, we can’t get on board with either Theo or Teddy as a nickname. I’ve always loved Cameron, but my husband is not a fan.

If it’s a girl, i want her to have a really feminine first name since her last name isn’t so much. The one name we can both agree on is Adeline, although my one reservation is that we have a niece Madeline, and is that too similar even though ours will have the long “i” sound?

I have also always liked Amelia, but my husband isn’t a fan.

I appreciate any help you can provide – We are just at a loss!

 

It would be fun to see if we could find another boy name that was an unusual/fresh surname-name with a familiar nickname. No reason we MUST—just, it would be fun to look. I’m leaning heavily here on the Last Names First section of The Baby Name Wizard:

Callahan/Cal
Callister/Cal
Corrigan/Cory
Cortland/Cory
Davison/Davy
Finnegan/Finn
Maxfield/Max
Nicholson/Nick
Robinson/Rob
Robertson/Rob

I find the ones that end in -son a little hard to say with the surname—not to a deal-breaking point, but enough to notice. Plus, those repeat the ending of Thompson—again, doesn’t have to rule them out, especially if you mostly call him Tommy.

More possibilities:

Carter
Crosby
Griffin
Keaton
Lawson
Meyer
Redford
Sullivan
Wesley

If your husband isn’t interested in Cameron, I wonder if he’d like Camden? Broderick, Thompson, and Camden; Brody, Tommy, and Cam.

I don’t think Adeline is too close to Madeline for cousins, especially if I’m assuming correctly that your niece uses the -linn pronunciation.

The first step with girl names, I think, is to figure out your general style. Adeline and Amelia make me think of classic/vintage girl names such as Abigail, Annabel, Audrey, Clara, Claudia, Cordelia, Eliza, Eloise, Emeline, Flora, Josephine, Lillian, Lydia, Margaret, Molly, Olivia, Sylvia, Victoria.

But if you’re looking over that list and thinking, “Hm, no, no, nope, hm, no, meh, no,” then it might be that I’m way off and your style is actually Names that Start with A, or French Names, or Still Surname-Names But with Good Feminine Nicknames, or any number of other categories. This is one reason I’m so fond of The Baby Name Wizard: names are sorted by category, so you can look over a whole group of names and think, “Yes, we like a LOT of those” (and then spend more time evaluating all the other names in the category) or “Nope, that is DEFINITELY not us.”

Baby Girl Cadaret, Sister to Gabriel and Theodore

Hi there –

Your post (and the comments!) helped us name our second son, Theo, in 2014. After two devastating losses halfway through pregnancy in 2016, I am now 7 months pregnant with a baby girl. I’m hoping naming her will help me feel more hopeful and connected to her. I’m still worried I won’t get a baby out of this (even just sending this email feels like a huge leap of faith and “how the heck can you expect to need a baby name!?”). But I need to name her either way.

She’s due in mid-May, our last name is Cadaret (rhymes with Cabaret), and my boys are named Gabriel (Gabe) and Theodore (Theo). If she was a boy, I’d probably rally for a name with the nickname Gus.

As we explore girl names, I’m a little wary of the fact that several of the names we like are similar to other names (Adeline/Adelaide, Isabelle/Isabella, Lillian/Lilliana, etc). I’m worried about having a name that is confusing in the sense that people forget which version it is. I know a few friends named Lauren or Laura who hate how often their name gets mixed up with the other one. Is that a problem I need to worry about? I am kind of thinking I’ll steer clear of those kind of names, even though I do quite like Caroline (which is often confused with Carolyn).

Names we (or just I, but whatever I’m stubborn) like:

Isabella or Isabelle
Charlotte
Abigail
Amelia
Lily or Lillian
Penelope nn. Penny
Eleanor
Caroline
Josephine nn. Josie
Margaret nn. Maggie
Eloise

We have a trend for naming a more formal name with a nickname (Gabe and Theo), but I’m not married to the idea.

Please advise, oh wise baby namer.

Thanks,
Ashley

 

As a Kristen sometimes mistaken for a Kirsten, Kiersten, or Christine, I can confirm it’s definitely an annoyance—though it was not annoying enough for me to take it into account when naming my children. If you suspect it’s something that will drive you nuts, you’re wise to think of it ahead of time: my guess is that although practically any name is sometimes mistaken for another name, the Margarets and Penelopes of the world deal with it less often than the Isabelles and Adelines.

Two names on the list catch my attention for issues with the brother names. The first is Eleanor, which rhymes with Theodore. The second is Abigail, which for me is too close to Gabriel.

Looking at the name Margaret with your surname, I wonder if it would lead to pronunciation issues: Margaret Cadaret LOOKS as if the two names would rhyme, but they don’t. This bothers me for reasons I can’t quite put a finger on, but it is enough to take Margaret out of my top choices even though it’s one of my favorite names. Charlotte Cadaret gives me some of the same feeling, though lessened because the endings aren’t exactly matched.

My top choices from the list are Penelope, Josephine, and Eloise. Of those, my guess is that Eloise is the most likely to be mistaken for other names (Heloise, Eliza, Eleanor, etc.), but that the others are about as safe as names can be: that is, a Josie might sometimes be misheard as a Rosie, but only to the unavoidable extent ANY name might sometimes be misheard or misremembered. (Households containing Penelopes and Josephines should feel free to confirm or deny this.) And I love that Penelope and Josephine both meet the preference for a natural nickname along the lines of Gabriel/Gabe and Theodore/Theo.

Normally my next step would be to come up with more suggestions, but I feel as if you’ve got this covered: you have a good list with lots of strong candidates.

Baby Boy Nordson, Brother to Warren and Lee

Hi Swistle!

I’m Becca and my husband is Don. We are expecting our 3rd (and last!) boy the first week of June, and we are really struggling to find a definite name. I hate to feel the little guy moving around and not having a name for him. I hope you can help. I always like what you and your readers come up with!

Our boys are named Warren Isaac and Lee Anthony. They have Don’s last name, which is like Nordson, and so will the baby. My last name is kind of like Waylon, and I might use it as a middle.

Warren’s name was a my favorite name all the way back since middle school, but Don loved it too, so it felt like a joint decision. Isaac in the middle was just because we liked it and for the initials WIN.

Lee was harder to name. Don has never been the name suggestor and he didn’t like any of my favorites at the time. I just started listing any name I could think of that I didn’t hate and he clung to Lee. I didn’t really like it that much at first, so we were going to go with Leon, but when I saw him I decided that Leon was too harsh for him and went back to Lee. Anthony was chosen to honor my dad. Since he got his way with Lee’s name, we agree I get more say in this baby’s name.

I like that both Warren and Lee are surnames and English words, but they aren’t usually on those type of name lists. I like that both names are familiar, warm and laid back sort of names. I would like something similar, but there are no rules.

Names on “The List”:

Victor : This is probably in the lead, but people around here including me naturally say it like Vic-der which I don’t like. It might also be too harsh. I like Vic as a nickname.

Hugh : I love the meaning and the soft yet manly feeling of Hugh. It has been a longtime favorite of mine. Don doesn’t like it all that much, but isn’t vetoing it. Neither of us would consider Hugo, by the way.

Lloyd : My other longtime favorite. It was the name of my favorite teacher. Don likes it OK. There is a Floyd we don’t like though.

Vance : We both like this OK, but it’s not our likely choice. It could grow on me.

Perry : Probably off the list. It would be after Don’s mom because her name is Penny. Don doesn’t like it much.

Carl : vetoed but I love it!

Family middle name possibilities are: my last name ” Waylon”, George, Gene, Edwin or Edward, Donovan, Allen or Daniel. I’d also use any of the first name possibilities in the middle. My guilty pleasure middle names are Peregrine and Somerled, but I’m not sure we would use them. Really we are not too concerned about finding a middle name.

Can you come up with a fitting name I haven’t thought of yet? Or maybe just say which one on “The List” we should use? I will definitely be excited to update you all if I could get some input!

 

From your list, my favorites are Perry and Karl (I like the K spelling better).

I wonder if you’d like the name Terry? It strikes me with the same warm gentle sound as the names Warren and Lee, though possibly because of the extremely nice little boy named Terry I knew when I was in elementary school. He was kind and sweet and a little plump and had silvery blond hair and he used to hold my hand companionably at recess; we would walk around the playground, chatting and holding hands. I used to try to get him as a square-dancing partner in gym class because he was the one boy you could count on not to try to step on your feet.

Or Percy. Percy Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Percy.

Or Frank. It’s not quite as gentle in sound, but it gives me a similar feeling anyway, of a guy like Matthew Cuthbert in Anne of Green Gables.

Harvey gives me that same Matthew Cuthbert feeling, and I love the name, and it’s another surname name of the Warren/Lee type. Harvey Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Harvey. [Edited to add: I’m sad to say I agree with the commenters who say they wouldn’t put a Harvey in a sibling group with a Lee.]

Or Gus. Gus Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Gus.

Gus makes me think of Douglas. Douglas Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Douglas.

Albert is one of my pet favorites; I’d love to see it get more popular. I think the name probably caught my attention because of Colin Firth in The King’s Speech, but also there was a good and kind swimming teacher named Albert when I was a child. Most of the male swimming teachers were preening jerks with names like Shane and Troy, who spent a fair amount of lesson time flirting with the female swimming teachers; but Al was not a preener and seemed like he really liked teaching, and he was patient and nice, and he certainly contributed to my feelings about the name.

Or Philip, speaking of royalty with gentle names. Philip Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Philip/Phil.

Or Alfred. I might like that even more than Albert. But maybe it seems a little dressy with Warren and Lee.

The name Roger got my attention when I read somewhere that it used to go with the nickname Hodge. I think that’s darling. Roger Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Roger/Hodge.

Ooo, I recommend Paul. I think it has that warm, gentle sound, and feels underused, and goes very well with Warren and Lee. Paul Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Paul.

Or Joel. Joel Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Joel.

Oh, or I like Russell. There’s a Russell in the same grade as one of my kids, and the name keeps hitting my ear favorably. Russell Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Russell/Russ. I like the way it has two syllables like Warren, but has a one-syllable nickname.

Maybe Ira? Ira Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Ira.

Is Murray too similar in sound to Warren? Murray Nordson; Warren, Lee, and Murray.

 

 

 

Name update:

Baby boy “Nordson” has been born and named! I figured I owed you an update since your blog was keeping me company while I had to hang out alone in the hospital room for an extra day, and also because you and your commenters were very helpful.

His name was supposedly finalized but then changed multiple times between you posting my question and his birth. We went through Victor, Perry (turns out it’s one of my grandma’s maiden names too), Timothy and S0merled (as a first name!) before arriving at Hugh S0merled Nordson.

The middle name really made my husband turn around on Hugh, and I’m happy because that is exactly one of the name combinations I came up with years ago fantasizing about just one more baby.

Baby Boy or Girl W. (Rhymes with Foreign), Sibling to Jonah

Dear Swistle,

As the arrival of our second baby draws nearer and nearer (any day now), my wife and I are scrambling to assemble a shortlist of names that we feel certain about. We don’t know the sex of this child, but are struggling more with girls’ names than with boys’. The kid’s last name starts with W and rhymes with foreign.

This is a hail mary. Here’s where we’re at.

Our first kid is Jonah Robert. Jonah because we loved it, an established but not-too-popular boy’s name with some softness to it. Robert for my wife’s grandfather. Few pronunciation or spelling issues.

This time around, our shortlist of agreed-upon boy names includes Ezra and Elias (nn Eli). Silas might also be hovering at the margins. I also love Levi (Lee-Vi), though my wife’s colleague has a Levi (Leh-Vee) and it feels too redundant in her circle. Middle names are a little more up in the air, with me feeling Wilder (a tribute to our love of the outdoors) or James (my maternal grandfather), though we feel like James doesn’t work with Elias, and my wife is a little lukewarm on Wilder all around. I also worry a little about the repetitive – “a” sound at the end of Jonah and Ezra, but maybe that’s not something to lose sleep over. Thoughts?

For girls, we’re basically nowhere. We both dislike frilly names, and I am especially sensitive to the popularity of “elle”, “ellie” sounds and super trendy names (Harper, Avery – though I like them, stylistically). The closest thing we have to a girl’s name is Willa James (William is the patrilineal name passed down in my family and I get a little thrill from stealing it for a girl). Our only hesitation on this one is with the alliteration, Willa W., and it also has the potential problem of the repetitive “a” sound at the end: Jonah and Willa.

If it were up to me alone, I would name a girl Paige or Sylvie, but neither appeal to my wife. I also love Corinne, but it rhymes with our last name. no go. We also like Georgia, but Jonah and Georgia feel too close to the same name. Naomi is also hovering as a possibility, but it just doesn’t feel like “the one” to me.

On my list, but nixed by my wife are:
Sarai,
Blythe,
Merritt,
Heather,
Ainsley,
Raleigh

I would happily use a more-popular, but traditionally male name for a girl: Henry, Brett, Ezra, Chase, Walker – with the right middle name (I love Walker Leigh). We both like Elliot for a girl, but know that it would be shortened to Ellie.

My wife is all-in-all pretty ambivalent about girl’s names. She can’t find many (any) that she likes. Her “favorites” if you can call them that, have been the too-popular, but semi androgynous Harper, Avery-type.

It feels a little like the field is wide open, but hopefully this has given a little bit of insight to our style and preferences. Maybe you and your readers have a winner up your sleeves?

With hope
Meg.

 

Especially when things are down to the wire, I like to be able to swoop in with strong opinions: “This not that!” “That not this!” “I KNOW THE VERY NAME YOU SHOULD USE!” But I’m not feeling strong opinions here. I will give my mild opinions anyway.

I think two names ending in the -a sound (Jonah and Ezra or Jonah and Willa) is fine; if I had several favorite names and couldn’t decide among them, the matched ending would knock one of them down a point for me—but it wouldn’t knock anything out of the running. I think Elias James sounds fine, and that an honor name is more important than a perfect sound—especially when it’s so nicely equivalent to your first child’s honor name. I agree about the similarity of Jonah and Georgia: visually they’re quite different, but when I say them together I hear how similar they are. I think the alliteration of Willa W. might be something I’d avoid or might be great (and same initials as Wonder Woman!); but it doesn’t matter if I think it’s great, if you think it’s meh. I do really like the idea of taking a William naming tradition and making it a Willa (or a Willemina/Wilhelmina), and I also like the name itself with your preferences: not frilly, not trendy.

I’m not crazy about Willa James: the sound is good, but “using traditionally male names as girl middle names” is a trend right now, and I find I’m already weary of it. I’m not sure what message it sends, when there is no equivalent trend for using traditionally female names as boy middle names. (But perhaps you DO know what message it sends, and it’s a message you like. As I say, my opinions here are mild.) Also, since you would also be naming her after the men in your family with the name Willa, it feels as if “honoring the men” has been fully covered. Have either of you a grandmother you’d like to honor? Or if using Willa already satisfies the wish for a family name, perhaps the middle name could be used as a place for a name you both love but it felt too trendy for a first name. I think Avery and Harper in the middle name position can have a fresher, more surnamey sound: they suddenly sound like family names instead of Top 20 Popular Choices.

I think the problem with finding a girl name is that you have your tastes, and you have your preferences, and they are opposed: your preference is to avoid your tastes. You both like Harper and Avery and Elliot, but you don’t want to use names like those. There are at least three good options here:

1. Come to terms with your tastes, and use the names you like best without worrying about their trendiness/popularity.

2. Trade how much you like the name for a reduction in trendiness/popularity. Weigh it on the scale, and decide you are willing to choose a name you don’t like as much, in order to meet your preferences. This works best if you KNOW you are doing it: otherwise you can get stuck in the “How about non-trendy name X?”/”But I don’t like it as much as Avery/Harper/Elliot”/”But those don’t meet our preferences” cycle. You would know going into it that you wouldn’t like the name as much, so you’d be looking for the name you like most among that names that DO meet your preferences.

3. Find names that are in the style of Harper/Avery/Elliot, but less popular. The style itself will still be in fashion, but popularity can make the trendiness more or less apparent. (There is a risk, however, that others will also find those less-popular choices and then those names will become increasingly common.)

With a brother named Jonah, I’d be looking for more hip biblical names for boys, as you’ve done: Ezra, Elias, and Silas are all great choices. Interestingly, biblical names do not seem to have come similarly into style for girls. I think it’s that there are way fewer of them to chose from, and many of them don’t have that biblical SOUND the way Jonah and Ezra do. Still, I will pick through the list in The Baby Name Wizard and see what we’ve got (note: I will not be checking any of these names for their stories, to make sure they’re GOOD stories).

Claudia
Delilah
Esther
Judith
Junia
Lois
Lydia
Martha
Miriam
Naomi
Phoebe
Priscilla
Ruth

I love love love the name Esther, and I think it’s great with Jonah. Jonah and Esther.

Naomi was already on your lists, and I love that name too. I think it’s so underused. Jonah and Naomi.

Claudia is a name I would have considered for my daughter, except that it is the name of Paul’s high school girlfriend. Jonah and Claudia. Both end in the -a sound, but the extra syllable of Claudia helps separate the sounds.

I’ve liked the name Judith better ever since someone pointed out the nickname Jude. Jonah and Judith; Jonah and Jude. But if you’re planning to have more children, I wouldn’t do this if it would make you feel trapped into using all J names.

I would love to look at a class list and see a Lois. Jonah and Lois. I like the repeated long-O sound.

Ruth sounds like the name of a woman who gets things done. Jonah and Ruth.

And I love Lydia, especially with your surname. Jonah and Lydia. (Another -a ending.)

 

Speaking of the names Ruth and Lydia, I am also interested in Solid Vintage Revival names for you—names like Sylvie and Georgia from your list. I think they sound especially wonderful with your surname.

Agatha
Camilla
Cordelia
Eloise
Esther
Frances
Louisa
Lydia
Margaret
Marilla
Martha
Matilda
Ruth
Sylvia

 

Options more along the lines of Harper/Avery/Elliot:

Aubrey
Beckett
Callister
Campbell
Carys
Casey
Darcy
Delaney
Emberley
Emlyn
Everly
Finley
Hollis
Jennings
Kaye
Keaton
Lane
Larkin
Leigh
Miller
Mirren
Reese
Rory
Teagan
Sloane
Sterling
Waverly
Winifred
Winslow

Some of these are not to my own tastes with the name Jonah. Jonah and Callister, for example, or Jonah and Sterling. I leave them in anyway, because parents are on a spectrum of how much they want sibling names to coordinate, and you may be on the other end of the spectrum from me. Plus, it’s common for parents to have a different naming style for girls than for boys.

Lastly, I want to mention that it’s possible that there IS no girl name you will both love and feel strongly about. I had to come to terms with that for boy names: I had a ton of girl names I felt in love with, but for boy names I ended up looking for names that felt Satisfying and Good, and I didn’t look for Strong Certain Love Feelings because I just didn’t HAVE any.

Baby Naming Issue: Surnames and Family Naming Traditions

Dear Swistle,

I read your blog religiously and with the recents posts involving mother’s last name issues and feelings of resentment/pressure surrounding names, I decided it was time to write you myself. My situation is a two part question. I will try to be brief but I have a feeling it’s going to be long so feel free to cut it down if necessary!

I am currently pregnant (due in April) with our second child, a girl. We have a two year old son named James Reave (spelled differently). He goes by James exclusively and is named for my dad. His middle name is my husband’s beloved grandmother’s maiden name. I love his name and am happy to have honored the people we did. The resentment sets in when I start to think about his last name. I did not change my last name upon marrying and as I am the last member of my family to carry the name, I have particularly strong feelings about it. I always secretly imagined my husband taking my name and my children carrying it on, and though I did mention this desire occasionally, it was never seriously discussed as I think my husband and I both realized we weren’t willing to deal with the fall-out that would inevitably occur if we broached the subject with our families. Looking back, I wish I had cared less about what others thought and had had the courage to push for a real discussion on the matter. We contemplated giving our son my last name as a second middle name, but were hesitant to saddle him with such a long and clunky name. When it came time to fill out the birth certificate paperwork, I was too distracted to care much one way or the other and it wasn’t included. We almost gave him my last name as his only middle name but because we were naming him after my dad, it seemed strange for him to have my dad’s exact name with my husband’s last just tacked on the end. Hyphenating would have been the ideal compromise but both of our names are long and cumbersome and it would have made for a 20 letter last name. My last name also sadly doesn’t make for a desirable first name. I thought that I would just move on from this but as I begin to register him for activities and preschool, I am constantly reminded that we don’t share a name and it makes me sad. I am tempted to take my husband’s name but I feel like I’m giving up some of my identity and there is also the unfortunate issue of my name sounding terrible with his. My question is, should we at this point legally change our son’s name to include my maiden name as his second middle name? Do you know how much of a hassle that is at this point? Is there another solution I haven’t considered? I had thought that perhaps if we had another son we would just give him my last name as his middle but we are having a girl instead and it’s just not the name I envision for my daughter. Which brings me to my next quandary.

Ironically, in light of the conundrum surrounding my last name, my mother’s family has a matriarchal tradition of naming each first girl after her mother, Sarah. Although I go by my middle name, my first name is Sarah. My mother, grandmother, and great grandmother were all Sarah and the line of Sarahs continues further back still with a couple of all male generations mixed in. For as long as I can remember, my future daughter has always been referred to as Sarah by everyone in my family, as if there were no other option. It’s only now that we’re expecting a girl (who will almost certainly be our last child) that I have come to realize that we actually do have a choice in the matter. I’m torn because I love the idea of continuing this tradition that makes me feel connected to my mother’s family but on the other hand, I feel like I’m giving up the opportunity to pick my only daughter’s name. Sarah is a fine name but feels slightly plain and overused to me and as it is my mom’s name, it seems a bit strange for both of my children to be called the same names as my parents. I realize we could move Sarah to the middle name position, but that seems to water down the tradition somewhat. We have considered naming her Sarah and calling her Sadie, but we’re just not sure Sadie feels quite right. Where we seem to have landed for the moment is to name her Sarah but call her by a middle name of our choosing. My hesitation with this of course is the hassle that comes with being named one thing and called another. I have been frustrated by this my entire life and to now be contemplating doing it to my daughter feels a little wrong. On the other hand, I survived it and can now appreciate the significance and meaning behind my name. The name my husband and I keep coming back to is Sarah Emmeline. Emmeline, though not a family name, feels special. I like the connection it has to multiple suffragettes and women’s rights activists as well as it being the name of the title character in a book about female independence that I enjoyed reading. Additionally, it was the name of my first cabbage patch doll, and as a result, it’s a name I have always had a soft spot for. While I do love the name, something is keeping me from completely committing. It is definitely my husband’s first choice and he has told our son the name, who has now taken to calling her Baby Emme in the sweetest little voice that melts my heart. But is Emme too cutesy? Will Emmeline constantly be mispronounced? (I prefer the Emma-line, rhyming with pine pronunciation). Does it work with James or is it too uncommon alongside a top 10 boys name? Does it sound like a trendy, made-up name as one of my friends suggested? Other names we like but that don’t feel quite right are:

Clara
Celia
Charlotte
Kate
Eliza/Elizabeth
Linnea (I love, husband hates)
Adeline
Isabella (family name but too popular)
Cora
Maggie (we don’t like any of the longer name options)
Georgia (if we had a boy, George would almost certainly have been the name so I want to hang onto it in case a boy were to come along)

I’d love to hear your thoughts on the best option for us. Please feel free to suggest new names or ones from our list that we should reconsider. I’m sorry for the incredibly long post but I would be so appreciative of any guidance you may be able to offer on these naming dilemmas! And I’ll be sure to send an update!

Thank you!!
L.

 

As time passes, I feel increasingly incredulous at the way I considered Paul so progressive just because he was WILLING TO DISCUSS other options than going with his surname. And at how both of us concluded that there was nothing else that was worth the hassle and confusion—as if “having someone periodically make an incorrect assumption about our surname” would have been so terrible, and “me having to give up my family name and use his family name for ALL OF MY CHILDREN” was so much lighter a load.

And I can’t believe I felt as if I were really getting my way to have my surname put in as the children’s second middle name. Not even their first middle name, but the SECOND one. The one that gets left off of many forms that don’t have room for two. I’m still glad we did that rather than doing nothing, but it feels like being grateful for crumbs.

My hope is that the way you and I are feeling, which is the way I have noticed a lot of other adult women feeling, is a feeling that will move like electricity down to the next generation of women: that THEY will think, “Why would I give up my OWN name and take HIS name?? That’s insane!” and then also NOT give all the children his name so that she ends up the only one not in the family surname club. My hope is that if we as a society can’t come up with a fair solution that makes sense for every family, then we as a society are going to make room for a lot of different ways to do surnames, and that most of those ways will equally represent both parents (and/or average out to equal representation), and that we as a society will stop acting as if that’s weird. We’ve had comments on surname posts that make me wonder if there’s something in the water—like, women commenting that they don’t think using the father’s surname for the children should in any way mean the mother should get any more say in the rest of the name, because that’s just normal and doesn’t count. AS IF THAT IS NOT, AT ITS CORE, THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS. Which family do these children belong to? Which family matters? Who is head of the family, as symbolically shown by his spouse and children taking his name? What name goes over the door, on the mailbox, in the phone book, in the newspapers? What name goes onward down the family tree, and which one is abandoned? THIS STUFF MATTERS ENORMOUSLY.

In moments of regret and societal despair, I have fantasized about dropping my husband’s surname from my own name and from my children’s names. I grew those children in my body, I have done the vast majority of their care over the years: if they must be marked with one family name or the other, they should be marked with MINE. It is interesting to me that when I do consider this, what I worry about is the apparent symbolic attack on Paul: if I drop his surname, if I give his surname to the children only as a second middle name, how can that represent anything but the most enormous slap in the face? (This is when I pause, wondering if anyone else is thinking as I then do about what an enormous slap it is to the mother and the mother’s family, when her name is preemptively stripped from her and from all her future descendants.)

About your son’s name. I feel almost weary as I root for the option to change his name to include your surname as a second middle: it feels like so much trouble, and for crumbs, and I don’t know how much hassle is involved but I expect a fair amount, and I hesitate to push anyone to deal with city hall about anything, when I myself would almost rather perish. But—when my eldest graduated high school, and they read his full name and one of those names was my birth surname, it is hard to explain how glad I was. I did not even slightly wish we had given him a shorter or less complicated or nicer-sounding name; if anything, I only wished we had hyphenated, so that we could have heard my name every day instead of once in 18 years. It gave me this feeling like…like names are IMPORTANT, not decorative. Like they are HISTORY and they MEAN something! Yes, there are names that would have been PRETTIER, but my family name doesn’t need to be pretty in order to be important.

There was a girl in Rob’s graduating class who had an almost startlingly complicated/clunky hyphenated surname. I am trying to think of an example that would communicate the feeling/sound of the name without giving away anything about the name, and I am failing. BOTH surnames are impossible to spell and pronounce. One of them is four syllables, the other is three. They don’t sound good together. And yet, weeping my way through the graduation ceremony, I thought, “Why didn’t WE do that??” Her name doesn’t have to “sound nice.” Her name communicates her ancestry, and IT INCLUDES HER MOTHER. Why is “sounding nice” more important than “INCLUDING HER MOTHER”?

How often, I wonder, do women drop the idea to use their own surname for the children because the name doesn’t sound nice? Compare that to how often we decide not to use the father’s surname just because it doesn’t sound nice. I went to school with a kid whose surname was Butt, and another whose surname was Dick. If those had been the mother’s surname, would there be a chance in hell of the children having those names anywhere within their names? But because it was the FATHER’S surname, it was worth the constant embarrassment. This is one of the many ways we reveal our beliefs about the relative value and importance of the parents’ surnames.

Every family that starts with anything except One Woman + One Man has to figure out the surname thing without falling back on the tradition of male names dominating, AND THEY ARE ALL MANAGING TO FIND SOLUTIONS that don’t involve one of them getting credit for agreeing it sucks that the only sensible solution is to go with tradition. One Man + One Woman families have some significant catching up to do in this area.

I am about to suggest an idea that I didn’t have the courage to do myself. I’m essentially saying to you, “I played it safe and went the nice comfy easy route that everyone understands, but you, YOU, should do the uncomfortable thing.” So I’d like to start by saying that you can trust me to 100% understand if you DON’T do it and instead do exactly as I did. I truly, deeply get it. But if we forget for a moment what the norms are, and we just look at the situation we have in your one single family, here is what we have:

1. Your husband, with his own birth surname
2. You, with your own birth surname
3. Your son, with your husband’s birth surname
4. Your daughter, with ______

Society is a mess, but your one single family can be balanced, surname-wise. If you like, you could change your son’s name to include your surname as a second middle name, and give your daughter her father’s surname in that same position. You and your husband could change your own names, taking the other one’s surname as a second middle name. (Perhaps wait and do this later, when the kids are older and it isn’t such a major ordeal to even get to the store for eggs, let alone get to city hall to do paperwork. You can make a date of it, maybe for a significant anniversary, while the kids are in school: first city hall, then lunch, then maybe a museum.)

I don’t know how to vote on the Sarah tradition. I have mixed feelings about naming traditions: on one hand, I find them touching and cool; on the other hand, they can cause such unnecessary pressure—and why does one person gets to name all the future generations? I strongly believe everyone should get to name their own babies. And especially when things get to the point that no one is actually using the revered name in daily life but instead just putting it on paperwork, it starts to seem like maybe no one really wants to do this tradition and it should stop. And I agree it seems odd to have your two kids named after your parents. I’m going to put this in list form:

1. The name Sarah would only be on the paperwork.
2. This was your own naming situation, and it has frustrated you your entire life.
3. It feels a little wrong to you to do this to your daughter.
4. The name Sarah feels plain and overused to you.
5. You lose the opportunity to choose your only daughter’s name.
6. You don’t like the idea of your two children having the same names as your parents.

Weigh this against the downside of using Sarah as a middle name: it “seems to water down the tradition somewhat.” It absolutely DOES dilute the honor, but perhaps it is high time for that dilution to happen, and well worth it.

But I can also see how, for various reasons, you might decide to continue the tradition. In which case, I am strongly in favor of Sarah Emmeline, called Emmeline. Emme is not too cutesy; if it becomes too cutesy, you will stop using it and use something else (Emmeline, Emma, Em, Ems). Emmeline will occasionally be mispronounced/misspelled, but within normal range. It works beautifully with James and doesn’t seem too uncommon next to it. It is not a trendy or made-up name; your friend was mean to say that, as well as wrong.

I feel like you are under a lot of pressure here. There is the intense societal pressure to use your husband’s surname for the kids. There is intense family pressure to use the name Sarah for your daughter. And now you have pressure from Swistle, trying to make you give your daughter your own surname AND dilute the family naming tradition. All of this while you’re pregnant.

Well. I will say this: my own vote is for Emmeline Sarah YourSurname (or, if you change your son’s name to James Reave YourSurname HisSurname, then Emmeline Sarah HisSurname YourSurname). But if you go with Sarah Emmeline YourSurname, or Sarah Emmeline HisSurname, I will understand. There is no one single option that is obvious and solves all the issues and makes everyone happy, and all of us have to weigh the pros and cons and then choose the solution we think will give us the least grief in the long run. I believe I may have chosen wrong, but that doesn’t mean it would be the same for you.

 

 

 

Name update:

Dear Swistle,

I’m sorry for the delayed update but wanted to let you know our final decisions after the birth of our daughter! I can’t thank you and your readers enough for your kind words of encouragement and affirmations that my feelings and desires were valid. While I absolutely loved the idea of passing my surname on to my daughter (and am excited to see a recent poster going this route), I couldn’t stop myself from thinking, “But what about James?!” I realized it was all or nothing for me and decided it was more important to me for us all to be a cohesive family unit that shared a name. Being an only child with divorced parents probably contributes to this extra strong desire for unity :) We decided it made the most sense to make my surname the second middle name for all of us. Not incredibly original I know, and I agree with you Swistle, it feels like crumbs. While this was not my ideal solution, I feel satisfied enough with this arrangement and will look forward to hearing my surname read aloud at my children’s graduation ceremonies. Unfortunately, it seems I’m not doing much to further our cause, but I do hope that others will have the courage to challenge tradition and that societal norms will have changed enough for our daughters to have an easier time making these tough decisions.

As for the first name/middle name debate, your comments and the comments of your readers truly helped free me from any sense of obligation I was feeling about using Sarah and I decided to see what felt right when we met her. When I saw her, I knew I wanted her to be a part of the (now seemingly unending) line of Sarahs. I know I’m just kicking the can down the road, but in that moment it felt like an honor and not a burden to be able to pass along the tradition and to share something special with her. I’ll do my best to make it clear to her that this tradition does not need to continue! So Sarah Emmeline (called Emmeline or Baby Emme) it is. Thank you again!!

L.