Andrea writes:
We are expecting our first baby in October and we know it is a wee gal. So far we have had a lot of fun picking out baby names and trying them out for weeks to see how they “fit” and roll off the tongue in our family. “You and ____ comfy over there?” “How are you and ___ today?” etc.
So far we have three names narrowed:
1. Gwen (Gwyneth, but we will likely call her Gwen)
2. Esme (No, I have not seen or read Twilight…though every person I mention this name to asks that question. I didn’t even know it was in a movie/story!)…and the third, and probably our most favorite…also a family name = My grandpa’s:
3. Harvey
I love it. Harve.
So these are my questions:
1. Can Harvey really be used for a girl? I sure think so! But I’m curious to get your thoughts.Also, my husband and I have different last names. I am Franzen, he is Goeppinger. Which combination do you like best?
1. Harvey Lillian
2. Harvey MaeAnd with which last name?
If we choose Gwen or Esme it will be easy = Gwen Harvey and Esme Harvey. Easy!
Ok, thanks for your input!
Using the name Harvey for a girl would make a strong statement. Here are the questions I’d be considering very seriously before doing so:
1. Is it a statement you want to make?
2. Since your daughter will be the one carrying the name: is it a statement you want to make for someone else?
3. Is it a name you would want for yourself: introducing yourself, filling out paperwork, making doctor appointments, sending resumes?
4. What would your plan be for future sibling names to go with it?
5. Would you rather save it for a possible future son? It’s underused and distinctive for boys.
If you use it, I like your idea of giving her a strongly and clearly feminine middle name. Both options you mention seem good to me. I would choose based on which name I would prefer her to be called if she decided later to go by her middle name.
I like even better your idea of using Harvey as the middle name. There, it’s a fun, quirky honor name, and you could still use it as a family nickname to ask her if she’s comfy over there—but you and she can bring it out when you choose rather than having to deal with it in every situation.
It ruins the honor name aspect of it, but another option is Harley. Or Stevie, which doesn’t sound like a girl’s name to me but I think it must be regional because there are hundreds of them born each year. Other options that share sounds:
Avery
Charlotte/Charlie
Evie
Genevieve
Harlow(e)
Harper
Harriet
Ivy
Livia/Livvie
Minerva
Sylvie
Vienna
Vivian/Vivvie
My favorite is Minerva. I think it has the distinctive and unusual sound you’re looking for, but with far fewer issues. I would want to be named Minerva myself, even with the “Like Professor McGonagall?” issue. (Professor McGonagall is AWESOME.)
The last name issue seems separate. Is your plan to take it on a child-by-child basis and use whichever surname works better with each name you choose? Or are you making the decision now for all the children? Surname decisions seem philosophical to me, rather than which-sounds-better—though “We’re going to use whichever one sounds better for each child” IS a philosophical decision, if that’s what you’re choosing to do.
Let’s have two polls. The first will be about using Harvey for a girl. The second will let everyone choose among the three name candidates.
I think you should save Harvey for a possible future boy. My reasons:
1. Would your grandfather want to be honored in this way? What would he feel about a girl being named Harvey?
2. Would you ever consider naming a boy Gertrude Jacob? Probably not, even using the awesome nickname Gert, no matter how much you loved Grandma Gertie.
3. What type of girl, teenager, and woman will enjoy having the name? I can imagine a few, although I can imagine far more to whom the name would be a burden. Imagine an overweight 13 year old at a school dance, or a shy young woman applying for her first job in a male-dominated industry, or a cheerleader who hopes to be student council president. Does Harvey ask the guy to dance, get the job, win the crown? Maybe, but the name could be a hindrance.
I don’t dislike the name Harvey, but it is one of those names that is not only very gendered but also comes with some clunky/dorky baggage. Many boys might find the name a hindrance even without the additional layer of it being cross-gendered. If honor is its only value, then you could honor in another way (as a middle name, using the H initial, etc).
I think Harvey could totally be a spunky name for a girl. And I have known a little girl named Harvi (I believe it was an Indian name). I disagree with the idea that it is too gendered or dorky. These days we, in North America, use such a wide variety of names from a wide variety of cultures that I think it is unfair to assume that people are still looking at names in the same way that they did a generation or two ago. Is Harvey very unusual for a girl? Absolutely. But if you teach your daughter to be proud of having a unique name and that she defines her name and not the other way around, I think she will be just fine. There is a little girl in my son’s grade 1 class named Andru (pronounced like Andrew). When I first heard it I was certainly surprised to learn it was a girl he was talking about, but we quickly got used to hearing the name and now it doesn’t feel strange at all. I think we need to have more faith in people. There are small-minded people out there who will scoff at your name choice and that will always be the case. But I don’t agree that you should avoid using a name because you think other people will make fun of you or your child. When my son wanted to wear nail polish at 4 and 5 years old I didn’t say no because people would make fun of him. I had a thoughtful conversation about it with him and explained that some people think nail polish is only for girls, but that’s simply not true. I told him that if someone told him that he should gently explain that nail polish is for both boys and girls and that it’s fun to put on and that he likes it. I witnessed him explain it to one little boy and instead of mocking him the other little boy responded with a surprised “Oh!”. The world we live in is capable of much more understanding than we often give it credit for. I prefer to expect more from people. :) If you love Harvey, use it! :)
I voted against Harvey, but I would switch my vote is the om-to-be spells it Harvi, which is very sweet (for some reason!)…
… but the awkward “Hi my name is —” would still persist because you’re presumably not Indian. So, maybe Gwen is better after all, mn Harvi. :)
I would not use Harvey for a girl. It seems like a major outlier for you. Imagine the hormonal teenage years when you have Harvey and her younger sisters, Gwen and Esme. I know I wouldn’t be happy about being the one saddled with Harvey. Unless you are willing to use old man style names for all your girls, I think you should pass on using Harvey for this baby.
As a middle name, I think Harvey could be good for a girl. In that position, it reads as spunky and a bit eccentric. But it is also easily hidden away if she turns out not to be a spunky & eccentric kind of girl.
My favorite option for you would be to save Harvey for a future boy. Personally, I like the dowdy, old man style and I don’t see Harvey as being much of a burden for a boy these days. It’s really only a couple of steps away from Henry, so I don’t think most people would blink twice about a baby boy Harvey.
A college friend was given her mother’s surname as a given name- making her full name along the lines of “Mitchum Roberts.” She was assigned a male roommate, and because of overcrowding was not able to get another on-campus room. (She had called to double check her housing, and administrators assumed it was a prank.)
Just another data point.
My first roommate at school was a boy-with-a-girl-name who had that same issue in reverse!
I’d like to propose a test to be used for evaluating potential baby names: “Is this name likely to make life appreciably more difficult for my child?” If the answer is yes, or even maybe, I think that is a compelling reason to reconsider the name.
(That is my very measured way of saying GAHHH please don’t use Harvey as your daughter’s first name!)
I think Gwen Harvey and Esme Harvey are great.
I think it would be difficult to find sibling names that work with a girl Harvey. What boy names could be ‘boy’ enough to stand up to it? If you had all girls, they would also need unusual, masculine names but your other choices seem to lean feminine.
I think Harvey is great in the middle name slot or saved for a boy.
Oh dear… I usually like very distinctive, unusual names and encourage their use. But when I ask myself, “Would I, as a female, like to be named Harvey?” my answer is a definite NO. I think I would be especially unhappy, as a female Harvey, if I had found out my parents also considered Gwen or Esme as an alternate.
Please think seriously about it before going through with it. Do you ever go to Starbucks or any places like it? Go in, order a coffee, and when the barista asks, say your name is Harvey. How does it feel saying it? What is her reaction? Try to think about what it would be like for your daughter, day in and day out, for the rest of her life, throwing people she meets for a loop with the name Harvey.
It doesn’t help that the image I have of Harvey is sooo masculine… Like plaid shirts, hunting, or maybe classic cars/motorcycles, maybe even bookish in a rugged way. It’s a good image. I actually really like Harvey for a boy!
Why not Esme Harvey? Esme is a beautiful name and more unusual than Gwen without being difficult. Gwen Harvey is great too.
Best of luck– but think seriously before you fill out the forms.
Harvey fails the “would I like to be named this” test for me. But then I knew a Michelle in 7th grade who knew that if she had been born a boy she would have been named “Sheppard” after her grandfather, and she wished she were named that as a girl. I think Sheppard/Shep is a little easier to carry for a girl than Harvey, but this is to say, I guess you never know what kind of kid you’ll get. I also knew a female Michael who carried it well.
My other issue with the name is that it seems like it doesn’t really go with your other girl names. If my sisters were Jo and Peyton, I might be cool as a Harvey. If I were a super girly girl, with sisters named Gwen and Esme, as a Harvey, I might be upset.
My vote would be to save it for a boy if you plan on having more or use it as a middle now, and call her Harvey as a nickname.
I like the name Harvey for a girl, more than I like it for a boy. On a boy, I don’t think Harvey quite pulls off the Vintage Revival Charm of a name like Henry or George. But for a girl I think it’s very spunky and fresh. I don’t understand how Harper is gaining so much popularity and yet people are turning their noses at Harvey. Maybe that’s because I view Harvey as a surname (the only way I’ve encountered it in real life) rather than a boy’s name. I *especially* prefer Harvey over Harley, without question. I think you should absolutely go for Harvey if it’s your favorite; you always have the ol’ “It’s a family name” line to fall back on.
Although, having said all that, I voted that Gwyneth is my personal favorite.
Because Harvey is a very traditional male name and the only famous Harper is a woman. That’s why.
I think Harvey for a girl and an honor name is lovely – we live in an age where girls are being named traditionally boy names every day, and people are accepting and getting used to checking gender before they assign roommates and such.
I love love the idea, but someone else brought up a good point – would your grandfather be more honored by a boy or girl having his name? I try to compare it to my own grandparents/parents, and I’m just not sure. It’s something you’d have to figure out.
I also love using it as a middle name – I know a little Myra James who is named for her grandfather, and it is adorable to hear her called by both names.
All in all, I don’t think you can go wrong. Such wonderful name choices!
1) I don’t like the name Harvey at all for a girl. As a first name, it fails the “would I want this name myself” test. As a middle name, I think it would just end up being an embarrassing secret.
In think Gwen and Esme are great names and also sound good with your selected middle names.
Esme Lillian
Gweneth Mae
Why not save Harvey for a future boy?
2) Whatever you decide regarding the last name, I think it’s important all of your kids have the same one. It will just make life easier for them going through school. (Ie if a brother and sister have different last names people will assume they’re half of step siblings. Explaining that they’re not might get annoying for them).
You could always hyphenate the last names. My kids have a longish (5-syllable) hyphenated last name and it hasn’t been much of a hassle at all.
For me, Harvey as a first name for a girl is too far afield; my gut reaction upon reading this post was that, rather than coming off as happily unique and special, it feels more like a “huh?” However, I think it works as a middle name with one of the lovely girl names you like. I know plenty of women/girls who have male-sounding names or surnames (like their mother’s maiden name or another family name) as their middle name, and to me it works.
If you really, really want to get to call the baby Harvey all the time (like if it just makes you smile to say the name “Harvey” when you think about your baby, you could take the approach of using the names together, like by calling her “Gwen Harvey.” (I think Esme Harvey is a bit of a mouthful.) I grew up in the South and the double-name is quite common there. An example similar to “Gwen Harvey” that springs to my mind is the child character Mae Mobley in “The Help.” That said, if double-names aren’t common where you live, it might still end up being cumbersome for the child.
I always apply this test to names: Is this a name I would like to have myself?
The answer with Harvey is a big fat no.
I like Gwen (but not Gwyneth, sorry) and Esme though!
Add me to the “no, not for a girl” camp. I think Harvey is fine, even precious as a middle name. But I think I like it even best saved for a potential future son.
Just to add – could you name her Harley instead? At least in the UK it’s a more unisex name than Harvey.
I know people are suggesting that and that there are little people with the name Harley running around but, for me, the “Harley Davidson” thought is too strong. I wouldn’t want my kind having a motorcycle name.
I knew a little girl named Harley once and she was the most gorgeous child I have ever seen. Harvey sounds so close to Harley that I have positive associations. However, as another commenter pointed out, the name needs to be able to fit any type of person, and it’s impossible to know if your potential Harvey would wear it well and appreciate it.
I think Swistle’s questions to ask yourself before using Harvey for a girl are good ones. I think it’s a risky name to use for a girl – she might love it and wear it well, but I think the chances are good she might not. As a middle name, I think it’s great to honor your grandfather (and if she should happen to love the name Harvey, you could still call her that). Or saving it for a possible future son is something else to consider. Both Gwyneth and Esme are lovely and I’d go with one of those (I know if I I were choosing from Harvey, Gwen or Esme as I name for myself, Gwen and Esme would win by miles). Either last name or hyphenate, but I do think you should use the same one for all the kids. I also agree that it would be easier to choose names for future children with Gwen or Esme than with Harvey for a girl. Let us know what you choose!
My brother and sister-in-law had EXACTLY the same conundrum… what are the odds? Well, almost. My sister-in-law’s maiden name is Harvey and they had absolutely decided on Harvey as the name for their 4th (and final) child when they found out they were expecting a girl. They were toying with Harvey Jane and calling her “Vee” (which I think sounds very sweet) but in the end went with Maggie Jane Harvey Lastname because of the underwhelming response from everyone who heard the proposed moniker (Except me. I have to admit, I was not crazy about it at first but the thought of a niece named Harvey Jane really grew on me and now I think of it as a sweet little girl’s name). Three years later they love their little Maggie but still wish they’d just named her Harvey like they wanted to in the first place.
Can I make a suggestion? My sister is having a little girl any day now and is naming her Harvest with Harvee as her nickname. I love that as a compromise for your situation. Harvest is, in my opinion, fun, unique and is more feminine sounding than Harvey. Having Harvey (or Harvee, if you want to make the spelling more feminine) as a nickname still allows you to give her a honor name, but provides flexibility. If she’s the type of girl who can pull off Harvey, great. If not, she can go by Harvest in her public/professional life and use Harvey as a family endearment name.
Oooh, I like this a lot!
Wow, Harvest is such a great name! LOVE it! This is a wonderful suggestion and a great alternative to Harvey for a girl.
I think this is the kind of name that we imagine as being incredibly great on a character in a romantic comedy played by Reese Witherspoon. But in real life, I 100% agree with a person up above who said – but what if this girl turns out to be shy and a little bit awkward. This name could be a very tough path to walk for many types of kids.
That said, I like Harvey as a name a lot, and I think that giving a conventionally female first name with Harvey as a middle name is a great solution. I think “Gwen Harvey” sounds pretty amazing, and you’d always have the option of using Harvey or Harve as a nickname if that turned out to fit the kid.
I’m afraid I’m with the majority, and don’t really think it would work for a girl. I love the suggestion of using Harvest, with the nickname Harvey. However, if you don’t want to change it at all I would save it for a boy. Or, if you’re certain you just want the one child I don’t think it’s too out there for a middle name, and if she loves it she can choose to use it instead of her first name.
We have a little girl named Maggie. She was ‘this close’ to being a Harvey (my maiden name). I thought long and hard about it. Even at the hospital right after having her I still wasn’t sure. We eventually decided that as much as I loved it and was fine with it for a girl I didn’t want her to deal with having a ‘boy’ name her whole life. It is her middle name now:) Sometimes I wish I had been brave enough to use it with her but she is totally a little Maggie.
We have a son name Henri (grandfather’s name) and as much as I love the name Henri I wish I had used Harvey on him. We are done having kids and he is our only boy.
As for the other names on your list I love a lot of them. We have a Harriett so I’m kind of partial to that one. Harriett is unique but not too out there.
Use Harvey as a middle name! It is a great middle name, even (especially!) for a girl.
As others have mentioned, I would be concerned about naming future daughters since your other two favorites are so feminine and not of the same style as Harvey. Plus, it might be difficult to find a boy’s name that goes with Harvey, should you have a son one day.
I love Gwyneth Harvey. (And doesn’t it look pretty written out?) Gwyneth Harvey also works with both of your last names.
I know a woman named Harvey Anne in her late 70s. Very typical Southern name of the period with a man’s name with a feminine second name and called the complete name.
I wish we would stop reappropriating boys names as girls names. There are already so many unique choices for girls (and I’m not opposed to using surnames for girls names, within reason). Especially since the trend is that once a boys name has crossed solidly into girl name territory, we shy away from using it for boys anymore, but the reverse doesn’t hold true. /endrant
I personally would save Harvey for a boy or if I really couldn’t live without it use it as a middle name for a girl. Maybe call her Gwen Harvey. I think that is cute. As mother of boys I have found it very difficult to name them something both masculine and not common. Harvey is a great name for a boy and I considered it but it didn’t work our last name.
Everyone has brought up some excellent points and questions, including whether or not this is an outlier name for you guys, but I just wanted to say that Harvey actually does pass the “Would I want this name for myself?” test for me!
Let’s turn the tables: If we were considering using a grandmother’s name as an honor name for a baby boy, with the possibilities being the likes of, say, Pearl (like Earl?), Ruth (Seth?), Margie (Harvey?), or Mabel (Abel?), how do you suppose the responses would skew? It just speaks volumes that we consider boyish names “spunky” on a girl, but girlish ones “old biddy” on a boy…………For this reason alone–the still blatant and implicit gender inequality in nearly all societies–that I personally could not use Harvey for a girl without feeling culpable in promoting male superiority . Likewise for Michael, etc.
A related but different issue is that I sometimes think saying/believing a name is honoring so therefore there are few or no societal usage constraints can be a kind of denial–a disingenuous way of side-stepping a naming choice that would otherwise carry a degree of shock value.
Much as I would love to feel free of all such conditioning, I would rest a lot easier if parents-to-be were writing in and saying “Gee, I love the sound of Ruth on a boy. It’s so soft yet strong.” Then I’d feel all free-to-be-you-and-me about it.
(I get that whether I like it or not, it’s what happening. I’m OK with unisex names. Just wishing that more feminine values could prevail in society–that it would be really cool to give boys feminine names).
It loses the “statement” effect as a middle name.
Yes!
If you use Harvey, I really like Harvey Mae Goeppinger. However, I am not a fan of Harvey. My favorite name from the names you have suggested is Gwyneth Mae or Lillian Esme.
I think Harvey would be super cute on a little boy and would be a really cool name on a teenaged boy and adult man. Harvey on a girl for me seems as out of sorts as “Doug” would be. I like the suggestion Harley, and what about Marley?? Although, using these would probably ruin any future chance of you using Harvey for a boy. Marley and Harvey…Actually, if you are into that kind of thing it is kind of cute!
I don’t think that Harvey on a girl is THAT bad. I don’t love it, but I don’t hate it. I don’t like Gwen or Esme though (nothing wrong with them, just my personal opinion), so maybe that’s why I don’t mind it so much. And I second the HMG combo as my fave.
Anyway I wanted to suggest that you could split the Harvey between two names like Harper Ivy or Harlow Evie or something like that? I think if you did that then you could even use Harvey as a nickname!
I like the suggestions of you using it for a future son, but what if you don’t get one? Then you will have to use it for a girl anyway. Just a thought!
Good luck! :-)
On behalf of your unborn child, NO.
Side note– Swistle, I have a hunch a lot of the girls named Stevie are daughters of hardcore Stevie Nicks fans. The only female Stevie I know was named for her, and the name peaked in the mid-1980s (reaching the 500s actually!) at the height of Nicks’s post-Fleetwood Mac solo career. Have you met any serious Stevie Nicks fans? They are INTENSE.
I wish I could think of a full form besides Stephanie, as I’ve quite like the name for years. But it seems too informal on its own.
Oh no……I really dislike Harvey for a girl and would not like this name for myself. Please don’t use it!!
I agree 100% with a previous poster who said to try names out at places like Starbucks. I do this and it is SO eye opening to how people perceive a name, how they spell it (I’m shocked how some people can’t spell names) and how you would feel presenting yourself with a name.
I voted for Esme. What a beautiful name. (Side note – we named our cat Esme and I love saying it every day. Everyone who knows our cat likes the name too) ; ) Gwen or Gwyneth is great too.
I think Harvey is a cute middle for a girl, or if you may have more children, a name for a future boy.
I LOVE Harvey for a girl! Love, love, love it. Harvey Mae, especially.
It is just a difference of one letter: I can picture Harley on a girl, but I really, really can’t see a little girl named Harvey. Today’s Appellation Mountain talks about h-surname names for girls, in case you are interested.
http://appellationmountain.net/h-surnames-for-girls/#more-20174
I love Harvey on a boy, though, so I would definitely save it if I were you.
I am so rooting for baby Harvey! It makes me happy thinking about her, walking around one day like, What? It’s my name. My grandfather’s name was Burnice Ruby (rhymes with furnace/short for Reuben) and my grandmother’s brother’s name was June (named after a family member whose nickname was Junebug and shortened to June.) I have great great aunts who were named Ona Earl and Burner Dean (phonetic Texan for Bernadine.) If people can name their kids Legend and Maverick, you can totally name a girl Harvey. However, the fact that you are asking for opinions indicates that you aren’t entirely on board with it and are worried about what people will think. If being judged scares you, name her something safe. If you want her to fly in the face of authority and be a trend setter, go for it!
She would be a trend follower, not a trend setter. Naming girls boy names is a tired trend that goes back at least 100 years
I think it would work if you were going to use both names all the time – Harvey Mae has a nice ring to it (sounds a bit Southern), and the middle name is short enough it wouldn’t take up much space on credit cards and official forms, etc, so it could be her “official” name. But on its own, I’m with other posters that it doesn’t pass the test of a name I’d be willing to go through life dealing with – especially as it doesn’t seem from your other name choices like you’re TRYING to be edgy or trend setting (which I think is a heavy burden to put on a child you haven’t met yet, anyhow) – it’s just a name you really like and want to use to honor your grandfather. As such, I think Gwen Harvey goes perfectly with either last name. I had a friend in high school whose middle name was her grandfather’s and I thought it was quite cool both because it was a boys name (although technically it could have been either – they just went with the masculine spelling) and because it was an honor name.
If you wouldn’t name your boy Isabella, you shouldn’t call your girl Harvey.
Why must parents keep poaching boy names for their girls? If Harvey can’t be definitively masculine, what can? We keep inching further into a world where there are only feminine and androgynous names. If you want a boy name for your girl, please just pick one of the scores that have already been neutered. And read this: http://www.babynamewizard.com/archives/2009/10/death-by-androgyny-the-old-name-rules-meet-the-new-generation
Hear, hear!
Hey Guys! I am a girl and My full name is Harswaroop but since I was a child, I go by Harvey.. and surprisingly neither my middle name or last name is Harvey.. My full name is really long and kinda hard to pronounce, so my parents liked the name Harvey and I liked it too. So i go by Harvey now… Even though it’s kinda like a boy name, IDC… You people live in the modern generation of the 21st Century.. We should stop assigning genders to specific names.. I like the name Harvey so I go by it.. I’m not scared to tell the world that my name is Harvey and it sound like a guy name.. I love my full name too but only some people can say it.. Half of the people call me Harswaroop and half of the people call me Harvey.. WHY BLEND IN WHEN YOU WERE BORN TO STAND OUT? P.S- I am a teen! :) and IK that i shouldn’t be posting this comment after 2 years but I just saw it and I really wanted to share my story with You guys.. :)
Hi Harvey,
thanks, not sure if you’ll get this but — I stumbled in here too, as we’re soon to have a daughter and we’ve somehow got stuck on the name Harvey. It came out of the blue: we were having trouble agreeing on any name at all (I prefer unusual, she prefers normal), then we were sat in bed listening to a song by P.J. Harvey (‘Down by the Water’, a song about pregnancy, I think — little fish, big fish…) and I suggested it, and she liked the sound, and it’s stuck. Without all the old male associations mentioned above, I just think the pure sounds of the name sound very feminine without evoking a delicate flower.
Hi there!
We’re very much considering naming our baby girl Harvey and would love to hear if you went ahead with it!
Hi Kate,
We went ahead with it, and she’s rockin’ it….so far (nearly four years). People adjust quickly to it.
For sure, I’m expecting some boys will tease her later — but in my experience it usually turns out that those are the ones who secretly like you.
How about you?
Hi all! How fun to stumble across this comment again a while later. We named our daughter Harvie as well- just spelled with an ie. Her first name is actually “Harvie June” but we end up calling her Harvie frequently. Here’s to the Harvie’s and Harvey’s!
My daughter is a Harvie! Her dad and I struggled to agree on any names we both liked. I loved the name Reece and was set on it but I could not find a single middle name that I thought sounded right behind it. I knew her dad’s late grandfather (Harvey) meant alot to him but we never intended to name her after anyone. It was a split second thought but I instantly loved how Harvie Reece sounded. Her dad loved it even more. She goes by both equally as my side of the family & I call her Reece and her dad & his side of the family call her Harvie.
My granddaughter was born on 6,616 and she is called harvey realy its a fabulous name for a wee girl does work as its different and so sweet