Dear Swistle,
There is a naming dilemma I am struggling with that I have tried to find a solution for on the internet, but I can’t find anything about it, and I really can’t figure out what to do. Therefore I am hoping you have some ideas.
I am not currently pregnant nor will I be within the next 3-ish years; so I want to stress that this is not an urgent question. I’m sure you get many urgent questions, so don’t worry if you don’t get to answer mine soon (but I hope you will)!
I am not sure which last name to give my future children, because of my partner’s last name. It is a 4-syllable, 10-letter, Slavic last name, ending in the common -ović like 99% of last names in the Balkan area of Europe, where he is from. People that are not from the Balkan, aka most of people we meet (we live in Western Europe), struggle to pronounce and remember it, and those that do try, kind of always mess up at least the ending slightly.
My name is 1-syllable, 5 letters, and though it is not a super *well known* last name where I live, it is a very basic noun in the language we speak, so everyone in this country that hears or sees it can pronounce and spell it easily, and people from other, surrounding countries, though not knowing the word, tend to spell and pronounce it correctly because of its simplicity.
So you might already be able to guess my problem… I am concerned that my partner’s last name would be disadvantageous for our hypothetical children. It is long, difficult to spell and pronounce, and very very obviously *foreign*. In the Balkan, people do not generally give middle names, but my parents actually gave me not one, but two, so I always thought it would be cool to also give my kids that first name-middle name-middle name-last name pattern, to mimic my own (plus the fact that I would like to honour some family members). But with a 4-syllable, difficult last name, adding 3 given names sounds ridiculously bulky, besides not fitting on most papers.
I’ve also heard and read a lot about employers or even teachers negatively judging people with foreign-sounding names… I wouldn’t want my child to face discrimination. My parents picked an English first name for me and I have noticed its advantages throughout all my life, though I have to say my partner and I are both only in our early twenties, therefore neither of us have any real experience with serious job interviews yet.
The problem is that my partner really, really values his homeland and his culture and is very against, “accommodating ignorant westerners” as he calls it. Illustration: when I mentioned someone in his family choosing the English version of a Slavic name for their child so that it will blend in better in a international environment, he thought it was very ridiculous, and that one should always stick to one’s own cultural spelling (even after I stressed the pronunciation issue).
I understand that a link to heritage is important for a child. Our children will most likely grow up where we are currently, so my country. This means that they will grow up in this culture primarily, speak my native language primarily (though we do aim for bilingualism) and spend most of their time here. It would therefore, I thought, be fun if they felt at least linked to their dad’s family’s homeland through name.
It’s gotten a point that I’m not even sure how to bring any of this up with him (and I am happy I won’t have to for another few years), as I am honestly sure he will not be happy with the thought of giving his children anything but his last name. That is to say, generally our communication has always been really good, and we work out our cultural differences and arguments very maturely. This is the first topic I have ever come across that I’m not sure we can reach an agreement on.
So. I am a bit stuck. I do not intend to ever change my last name to his, for identity and feminist reasons. However, considering how much he values it, I would have probably not even minded passing on his last name to our hypothetical future children and thus given them their link to their heritage, if it weren’t for the damn complexity and “exoticness” of that name!
Obviously hyphenating is not an option because it doesn’t get rid of the long-difficult-name-scenario. The option of given different children different last names is not accepted/allowed where we live.
So what would you say? Which last name scenario should we pick, or for which should I at least vouch? Is the link to heritage and tradition worth the foreignness and complexity? Is the easy name worth the painful break from tradition and culture? How would I convince myself into feeling comfortable if we picked the former?
How does one begin to bring up such a touchy topic with their partner?
I’ll be amazingly grateful if you find a chance to answer this question. Thank you so much for your help and your time!
Best regards,
M.
There are two main topics here. One of them is the topic of the name itself: is it okay to add two middle names to a really long surname, what about non-phonetic-in-the-culture-where-you-live spellings, how to deal with having a long unusual surname, etc. The other is the topic of a partner who calls another culture ignorant, calls other people’s naming decisions ridiculous, will only be happy if the children have his surname, and is prickly enough on the whole issue that you are worried about having to discuss it again.
I will take you at your word that your partner is otherwise loving and accommodating, that normally he communicates kindly and fairly and maturely with you and with others, that he is not overall a scornful and dismissive person who makes you uncomfortable even thinking about bringing up topics with him, that valuing his own culture/heritage does not mean he routinely sneers at yours, and that there is no reason for this particular issue with the name to be setting off red lights left and right for me. Let’s assume that for him this is one of those weird hot-button issues of the normal sort that nearly everyone has, and that we are safe to think you would not be considering having children with him otherwise.
If that is the case, then the first thing I will say is that for many people there seems to be a big difference between Hypothetical Baby-Naming and Actual Baby-Naming. Some people can’t even think seriously about it until there is an actual baby on the way or about to be on the way. Furthermore, it is common for people to be critical of others until they are themselves in a particular position: for example, someone might scoff and eye-roll about parents “using television as a babysitter” right up until the point where they are on their knees blessing the dear people at PBS Kids for the half-hour break that keeps them from getting into the car and never coming back.
And so I think my first piece of advice is to wait awhile before bringing the topic up again. If it comes up naturally, such as when a friend or family member has a baby and names it, I suggest using those opportunities to make mild remarks disagreeing with what you disagree with and agreeing with what you agree with. If he says something is ridiculous but it’s something you think is a good idea, say mildly that actually you think it’s a good idea. I don’t think it’s necessary to hash out every detail beforehand or have fights about other people’s baby names, but it’s good to keep him reminded of your views so it’s not a surprise later on. If he is completely closed to disagreement on the issue and/or he dismisses/disparages your opinions, this is valuable information as well.
Now, about foreign names. I have heard of those studies that show that interviewers can unfortunately be influenced. However, as I understand it, this is mostly when (1) the name is fully foreign—that is, both first and last names are very unfamiliar, and (2) when it’s a name from a group that faces discrimination within that culture. So, for example, in the United States, someone named Celeste Laurent is not likely to have issues with her name, even though both parts of the name are French. You will know better than I whether someone with a full name from your partner’s country would face discrimination in the culture in which you live, and how unfamiliar/difficult first names from his country would be.
In the U.S., ancestries are so varied that I think of a surname alone as not communicating much to anyone, and it is absolutely par for the course to have one’s surname mispronounced. I used to work in a pharmacy, and I can’t count how many times I had to take a wild stab at pronunciation, or how many times I had to be corrected. My own surnames (maiden, and now married) were/are constantly misspelled and mispronounced (we have been informed by native Dutch speakers that WE do not even pronounce it correctly), and yet I don’t feel I experience any discrimination for it. I think it would be absolutely fine here to have a long, hard-to-pronounce surname, and paired with a familiar first name I don’t think there would be problems. I am not sure if it is the same where you are, but if you were here I would be dismissing that as a non-issue: if it’s important to your husband to use his surname for the children, and it is not equally important to you to use your surname for the children, then I’d say go ahead and use his surname without fretting.
I suggest, however, making it clear from the beginning that this is not something that is being done by default. That is, my guess is that it will turn out to be important that he understand that the children could have either your surname or his (or some other option), and that the two of you are deciding together whose it will be, and that choosing to use his surname means you are agreeing to give up on your absolutely equal claim to use yours. Then when it is time to discuss the first name, you are both aware of the process as it has happened thus far: i.e., that he has gotten his way on the surname issue, and that his culture/heritage/homeland/preferences have been very strongly represented in the children’s names already, and that now it is time to make sure your culture/heritage/homeland/preferences are also represented.
I wouldn’t rule out a first name just because it’s difficult: one of my kids goes to school with an Aoife, and it does lead to constant spelling/pronunciation issues for her, and yet her whole class now knows to pronounce it Eefa, and I just spelled it correctly for this sentence without having to look it up. But I won’t deny that a full-on “foreign” name is something I would not personally want to deal with. It’s one thing to be Kristen (a very familiar U.S. first name) DutchSurname, but would be quite another to be Marjolijn DutchSurname.
Does this mean I think you shouldn’t go full-on Balkan for your kids’ names? No, no. For one thing, I don’t know how things are where you live, and for another thing there are TONS of people who DO go full-on cultural for names and yet the streets are not filled with wild laments of regret, so it’s really up to each set of parents how much spelling/pronouncing they want to handle.
I would, however, say that if you give your children his surname, you are already giving them a nice big hearty dose of culture/heritage from their dad’s side. The first name, then, seems like it could be a name from your culture/heritage, or perhaps a nice international name that bridges the two cultures. It sounds to me as if taking names from his culture and spelling them more accessibly is not a compromise he is willing to make, so I’d advise either choosing names from his culture that are already easier to deal with internationally, or else choosing names that are not from his culture.
I am also absolutely in favor of using three given names even with a very long surname. Ridiculously bulky is in the eye of the beholder, and the paperwork issue doesn’t bother me a bit. My kids have four names each (the second middle name is my surname), but of course most people only know/use the first-last; and when the two middle names don’t fit on the paperwork, we use one or two initials. I worried ahead of time that it would be Too Much Name (especially for my daughter, who has unusually long names), and I cannot overemphasize what a non-issue it’s been.
And again: you are taking your partner’s strong wishes about names into account, and he should also be taking yours into account. No matter how strong his preferences and feelings are, you are equal partners in choosing names for your children.
I second the naming an actual baby is different from a hypothetical baby. My husband and I used to talk about baby names pre-baby and I distinctly remember him saying no to the name Elizabeth. Guess what our 4-month-old is called? (A name that he suggested.)
Your hypothetical kids will be dual-cultural so in my opinion mixing cultures in naming your kids is perfectly fine. Karol Stanislavski or Charles/Karl Smith-Stanislavski are both fine to me.
As for the long name, my kids are hyphenated mine-his. Mine is a fairly common 2 syllable English surname that is *usually* pronounced correctly and his is a 3-syllable Irish one that is usually mispronounced. In practice, this 5 syllable surname isn’t too bad to handle.
Now, here Irish names are pretty popular, so even the more obscure ones like Aoife just make people assume you’re mostly Irish-American. Karol might be a poor choice because of its similarity to Carol, depending on your nation but some names are really similar.
Some Latvian girl names i found are
Anna
Diana
Monika
Marta
I like the combining traditions of using his (long, strongly-culturally identifiable) last name with your family’s tradition of two middle names. And I’d suggest doing something like: First name from your culture, middle name number one from his culture, middle name number two from yours (or maybe your last name? For all the kids?), his last name.
So if you’re French, maybe Marie Elena LeBec Gregorivic?
I will second this suggestion. I think it is a lovely way to honor both parents/families/cultures
This is exactly what I was coming to recommend as well.
And I would push for your maiden name as the second middle name so that if they are ever in a situation where having their fathers’ surname would be to their detriment they could use your last name and it’s legitimately their name, too. It also will decrease some of the confusion people may have about your last name not matching theirs, but hopefully most people are starting to recognize that as normal.
I would also try to compromise on the first two names by focusing on names that exist in both cultures (if possible), but choose your culture’s spelling for the first and his culture’s spelling for the first middle.
I grew up with a 4-syllable, 12-character foreign sounding lasting name that isn’t spelled intuitively for English speakers and it wasn’t ever an issue for me. I learned to joke about its length (“Do you have a pen? Brace yourself!” or “Write small!” kind of thing). It was kind of a nice talking point sometimes when meeting new people (“What nationality is your last name?” “Were you born there?” “Do you speak the language?” etc). I will tell you that my father – where the long name originated – legally shortened his name to half it’s length when I was a teen because he found the long name too bulky for his business dealings. I’ve always thought that was a bit extreme, though, and I managed with the bulky, awkward last name just fine (I live in North America and was given very straight-forward, English names).
I don’t think two middles with a long surname is too-much-name either. In fact, I find it a pleasing middle ground to incorporate his family heritage and yours, both. My own preference would be to steer clear of first names that are strongly his ethnicity, for ease of use and for family-blending reasons. But middle names could be anything you both agreed on.
I dunno, I see this whole thing a little bit differently. I didn’t see the partner as calling a whole culture ignorant, but “Ignorant Westerners” is a pretty accurate way to describe the type of Western Europeans that would discriminate against someone for having a Slavic name. He doesn’t want to accommodate discrimination. He thinks it’s important not to accommodate discrimination. Which is definitely difficult to deal with, but it’s also kind of admirable.
Generally, when I see spouses that have issues about picking a surname for their children, I am most sympathetic to the people who have a strong attachment to their own name, and least sympathetic to the people whose arguments hinge on their spouse’s name being somehow defective. I think the person who grew up with the name and has lived with it their whole life should be the judge of whether it’s defective or not.
3+ years is plenty of time though for the letter writer’s feelings about not fitting in with the majority quite so automatically to develop, especially as she gets into the workforce and meets people with all different kinds of names, receives birth announcements from coworkers giving their children all different kinds of names, etc. I would encourage her not to let her partner know she considers his last name unfortunate, but instead focus on the positive things that she’d like to pass on in her childrens’ names – including a respect for feminism.
Yes! I thought Swistle judged the partner here a little harshly. The letter writer mentions throughout the “foreign” and “exotic” nature of the name and how people may think negatively of her children because of it–maybe he’s sensed from her that she doesn’t like it or is biased against it, and he is reacting to that? I think a name that can incorporate both cultures would be ideal and respectful to her partner.
Its interesting to me that this is a letter from Western Europe…we don’t know what the last name is, but if the last 4 letters are -ovic, and the first six letters spell out two syllables, that doesn’t leave a whole lot of room for unpronounceable strings of consonants. Sometimes people just need to adapt.
On a related note, here in the U.S. an elector in Washington just voted for Faith Spotted Owl, which is a real person’s name. Although it’s taking some news commentators a while to figure that out.
My argument in this post is that the name should incorporate both cultures, as opposed to just the partner’s. My impression from the letter is that the partner is insisting (or she feels he may insist) on his own surname and possibly also on first names from his own culture (spelled as he prefers, without taking into account the letter-writer’s preferences), and that the letter-writer is inclined to give in to this because the partner has such strong feelings about it and because he is making her nervous to bring the subject up at all. I am also under the impression that the partner is referring to the letter-writer’s culture as ignorant, and to the letter-writer’s opinions as falling into the category of those he considers ridiculous. I fully supported using the partner’s surname if the letter-writer doesn’t mind doing so, and argued against taking spelling/pronunciation/foreignness issues into the decision, but suggested that the letter-writer’s preferences and culture also be taken into account, rather than dismissed as if his cultural ties/feelings are important but hers are not.
I further think that we as well as the partner need to listen to the letter-writer’s impressions of things as they stand in her own culture. It is hard to compare another country to the U.S., which is why I generally don’t take out-of-country questions.
I should have been more clear that I think it’s completely legitimate that the letter-writer would want to see her side reflected in any children’s names, and to be able to pick first names and middle names that appeal to her and that the people who are important to her will be able to pronounce.
My main caution is just against getting to focused on the idea that his last name is a disadvantage. That’s a pretty harsh thing to tell someone when they don’t feel that way themselves.
I understood “ignorant Westerners” to belong to people who can’t spell/pronounce difficult names from his country. It is in the paragraph about changing the spelling of a name to make it easier to spell and pronounce in the country where they will have the child.
If he did mean it to refer to the people who will discriminate against his child because of his child’s name, and he knows that the country the child lives in WILL discriminate against his child for that name, then I would have written much more about whether or not a parent should deliberately give a child a name that they know will provoke discrimination in order for the parent to use the child’s name to make a point or take a stand. So I hope if this is the way it was meant, the letter-writer will clarify so I can re-write.
I am also going to express sympathy for the man in question. I have a wonderful, loving relationship with my very, very, very nice husband of 15 years and there are SEVERAL issues that I don’t like to bring up because . . . you know, disagreeing with your spouse isn’t very pleasant. I’m certainly not worried that he’ll be mean in any way. For example–is ten minutes early to church early or on time. Not as serious as a baby name, but comes up more often. Plus, I don’t know very many men who like to talk about hypothetical children or deal with hypothetical problems. It isn’t really in their psyche.
So . . .. To the letter writer I would say, think about it yourself and notice what other people name their babies and listen to comments about baby names and see if this hypothetical discrimination is a real thing. Listen to how people handle your partner’s last name. You have awhile, so you can be collecting data on the subject for a good long time.
As a sidenote, I would let him have the last name. That would give you a lot of bargaining power for the first name and then you could share the middles. As you mentioned, if you will be living away from his homeland, then the last name does have a lot of significance for him.
I’m Slavic and therefore familiar with this dilemma. Unfortunately, Slavic names translate really badly into English (not sure where you live.) When it came time to name my son, born in the US, I was asking myself similar questions.
I feel like the part you need to figure out is not what is acceptable or okay to do in the world of naming rules, but how much of your own heritage you want or need to bring into the names of your future children. What are your own non-negotiables?
You are right that it can be tough to grow up with a super Slavic name (think something like Mrndzo Kraljević, yes, I have several relatives with that first name who wouldn’t stand a chance in any non-Slavic country.) But a lot can be pulled off: Check out Lorde’s Croatian-Irish birth name Ella Marija Yelich-O’Connor, how’s that for a mouthful?
As for me personally, I gave my son a mostly American name and enjoy that I never have to spell his name (something I struggled with in my own life), but I managed to bring in a bit of my heritage in the middle name. For my next child, I will probably be a bit more brave and use at least one Slavic name for a middle name, and potentially not even respelling it. These are negotiations that I think may look a lot different once you have a actual baby on the way, as you might not know where your values really lie until then.
I just looked at a list of common Slavic names and there are lots there that are also common in the West, including a spelling variant of the most common girl’s name this year, Sophia (Sofia).
I had to deal with this exact issue, except that we both had extremely long unwieldy last names. In the end it was more important to me to have the right to pass on family first names than have my last name represented. So our children are both first name and middle name honor names (with three of the four honor names on my side) and last name his.
That said, and I think several others have pointed this out. There are several broadly ‘international’ given names that share popularity widely around the globe. Think about the name Anna (as some people have pointed out), or Robert- both names that have broad international variants. When the child visits the Slavic area of his fathers birth, he can shift the tone of his name (and perhaps even be flexible about spelling).
Good luck
I wrote Swistle the “Juan Pablo Jones Problem” letter a while back, and though my situation is flipped, I feel like the roots are the same. My husband’s family changed their tricky to spell Central European surname to an extremely common English one, and anglicized their first names to avoid issues at the time of their immigration to the US, whereas I grew up in Central Europe with a very British name.
Speaking to you from the other side (now that we’re in actively naming mode) I would say that if you have any hesitations or preferences, make them known “conversationally” as often as seems appropriate now (having uncomfortable conversations and learning to stand your ground early on will be better in the long run, trust me). But be prepared to totally backtrack too. My first name preferences have changed a lot, as have my feelings on double-surnames. My husband on the other hand? Fixated on one extremely flamboyant and culturally specific first name that I just can’t quite get behind…the irony.
I’ll say this in regards to your surname worries: growing up in a non-English speaking country with a very British name was never much of an issue for me personally. And my first and last were very hard to say in that language. I had a swimming instructor totally butcher it once, but my friends and teachers always nailed it or called me by a diminutive which was fun.
I can’t think of another question that so interestingly combines feminist and cultural issues.
The original poster should absolutely feel free to advocate for her last name on feminist grounds.
I am less convinced that changing a Slavic name to a more Western European name is as noble. The American equivalent might be someone like Ralph Lauren (Lifshitz) or Martha Stewart (Kostyra), both individuals who chose to drop a Jewish or Slavic name, and who had every right to do so, and have probably enjoyed more success as a result. Foreignness is totally relative. It seems like there’s a subtle judgement about the inferiority of Slavic culture in there.
Sure, people judge foreign names. People judge children with their mother’s surname as “illegitimate,” too, but in both examples are wrong-headed.
I grew up in the US with a very long (14 letters!) German last name. My parents chose a nice short easy to spell first name for me, Holly. My first husband, and man I had children with, also had a very long German last name. His parents also saddled him with a very uncommon French first name. It was immediately apparent to me how different interactions were with introductions, phone calls etc between the two of us. Me: “My name is Holly Lautlongnameger” Response: “Hi Holly, can you spell your last name for me?” My ex: “My name is Theirry Zurlongnamefer” Response: “…..what?….uh…. I’m sorry, your name is?” SO, when naming my children, I opted to make sure that their first names were short, sweet, and 99% of people would spell them correctly right off the bat, wouldn’t miss hear them, etc. Since they were saddled with his last name, I figured it was the least I could do. I haven’t regretted it.
I also feel the need to write to defend the husband’s characterization of “ignorant Westerners” when it comes to naming children in bicultural families – I took the phrase as solely applying to the situation of baby naming. I do not assume that he is saying that all Westerners are ignorant all the time. I am from the US and my husband is a foreigner from a Spanish-speaking country. We gave our children Spanish names – something we both wanted. When our children were born, especially our first, *I* was the one who felt annoyed by the confines of what I referred to as the “list of gringo-approved names.” Our first was a boy, and while many Spanish names for girls have been embraced by the English-speaking mainstream culture, and others that are not as well known in the US can come off as pretty and exotic, the list of Spanish boys’ names that have been declared “usable” in the US seemed very short to me. Like the only names we could consider were Mateo, Diego and maybe Joaquín to give a few examples and every other name would be deemed “too foreign” and “not easy for English speakers to pronounce/remember correctly.” I understand the frustration of the mainstream culture judging which foreign names are appropriate, even responsible, choices for your child. I sympathize with both parents in this situation and I hope they can find a name they are both happy about.
My sister married a Colombian and she was also irritated by this same issue. She wanted names that would work in both cultures but that made such a short list that she felt like her kids had the same names as every other Latino/mixed culture family. She finally gave up with one of her kids and decided on a name that she loved but is unfamiliar in both cultures. It does appear briefly in the Bible so she uses, “It’s a Bible name,” to give it credibility as a name. (She really just got it from the Louis L’Amour book, Jubal Sackett.) Naming is a big dilemma for mixed-ethnicity families. In case you were wondering, her kids are Ana (adopted and already named), Elena, Isabel, Sebastian, Nicolas (goes by Lando–his middle name is Orlando), Jubal, and Efraim.
I hear you. I married a Catalan and ultimately gave my daughter a name that is not only unfamiliar, but basically unpronounceable in English (there is an easy English equivalent that she goes by in English environments). But I also felt stifled by the pre-approved “international names.” As you say, it’s easier for girls but I still did not want to be hemmed into Sofia or Lucia or Jùlia.