Hi There!
I am pregnant with my second, due in February. My first is a son, Moses Gabriel Aley. We call him Moses, or Moze (was taken from the film Paper Moon with Ryan O’neil). The middle name Gabriel is after my brother Gabriel, Gabe, who is deceased. My husband is James Donley Aley the Fourth. The agreement when we named Moses was if we had another boy he would be called James Donley Aley and he would be the Fifth. UNLESS a dear brother of my husband were to conceive a child before we did again, he was stuck on the name and we said that would be fine. I understand this is all very unconventional but James the Third named James the Fourth after he’d already had three boys before so it seems fitting to family tradition.Now, seven weeks after the birth of Moses, his grandmother died suddenly. Mother of James the Fourth. She was Judith. If this baby is a girl, and we wont be finding out until birth, we would like Judith in her name. We have mentioned keeping the girls name we had all set for Moses were he a girl, Iona. Iona is an island in Scotland near where I have family and my deceased brother, Gabriel, and I always both independently wanted the name for a girl. We went as kids. So, Iona Judith Aley? Maybe. But now Judith is really growing on me as a first name. My only qualm is the nickname Judy (much like the obvious yet unforeseen irritation in others insistence that Moses should be Moe, HATE.) And also that it was so popular in the fifties she would have the same name as a lot of retirement aged but not old quite yet women. like, has it been long enough that its cute yet?
My other thought is this. If this baby is a boy, and we do use James Donley Aley the Fifth, I have the crackpot idea of calling him Judd. A shout out to Judith but also a name i just kinda like better. James I like, Jamie I don’t, Jimmie might be a criminal, or awesome, J.D. no way in hell. Oh! and the thing is, the brother is also expecting a baby a few weeks after ours. So if they use the Fifth I am actually at a total loss. Except I still like Judd. Except my fella doesn’t. Jude does not work for me for a male, but absolutely for a female.
I think that is all. Thanks!
It sounds as if a second discussion with your husband’s brother may be needed. If I’m following this, your husband is JDA IV, but your husband’s brother has asked if he may use JDA V for his own son, and you and your husband have said yes. But also, you and your husband have decided between yourselves that if you had a second son, you would name him JDA V. Does your brother-in-law know that this was your arrangement, and so it’s a clear-cut situation of “Whoever has the next boy will use JDA V”? If not, it needs to be clarified in case they’ve decided on the name for sure and now both couples are about to have boys.
If that’s all been made clear already, then the situation as I understand it is that if you have a boy, you will use JDA V; and that if you have a girl and your brother-in-law has a boy, THEY will use JDA V. This leaves your brother-in-law and his wife in a bit of a tense situation as they wait to see whether you will have a boy or a girl, but we will not worry about them until they write to us. (“Dear Swistle, We have decided on a boy name for our baby, but we won’t know if we can use it or not until shortly before the baby is born. Let me explain….”)
On the other hand, you say that your brother-in-law is expecting a baby a few weeks after you, and that if he uses JDA V, you’re at a total loss for a name for your boy. This makes me think the discussion is still needed to clarify who is doing what. If you deliver first as expected, and if you have a boy, you will need to know if the name JDA V is available to you or not—and whether your brother-in-law would feel the same way about its availability to you. It would also be a good idea to see if your brother-in-law is planning to use the name for a future boy even if he has a girl this time. All these things have huge potential for misunderstanding, so I think if I were you I would start by making sure everyone knows what the plan is.
When a child is the fifth holder of a family name, I think nearly any everyday-usage name can be justified. I know two families who are only up to IV, and both have abandoned all pretense of actually USING any of the given names: both children go by names completely unconnected to their proud family naming traditions. I think Judd would work very well, and don’t see any reason you shouldn’t use it—well, any reason except that your husband doesn’t like it. Perhaps he could try to come around to the nickname you like, since he is getting a full namesake?
If he continues not to like it, though, I do think you can pick just about anything you want to use, connected to the name or not. If I hear of a James called, say, Ezra, I blink and wonder what on earth is going on; if I hear of a James V called Ezra, I understand immediately (and feel some empathy for the mother, combined with a fresh dislike of the concept of previous generations taking naming fun away from later generations). I used Ezra just as an example, but actually that would be a very nice fit with Moses.
If none of the other Jameses are being called Donley, I think that might be a very cute option. The name Don is a bit out of style at the moment, but Donley has a surname sound that brings it into fashion.
Does your mother-in-law’s maiden name work as a first name? If it did, that would be another option for an everyday name that would honor her.
Or do you like Judah? It sounds very similar to Judith, has similar biblical / Old Testament connections, and makes a very good brother name for Moses. It has the additional benefit of seeming to come from the initials JDA. You could use Judah as the given name (if it turns out the plan is for your brother-in-law to use JDA V), or as the everyday name for your own JDA V.
For a girl, it’s true that Judith has not quite worked its way around to being fashionable again. It hit its peak in the early 1940s, which means we might start looking for it again in the next generation. This is soon enough in the future that we could think of current usage as being ahead of the times rather than behind them.
I think, too, that the biblical story of Judith is so striking, it gives the name a timelessness it doesn’t have on its own—similar to Esther, or Ruth.
I’m not sure how much trouble you would encounter with people calling her Judy. Certainly the Judiths I know (one my age, the rest my parents’ age or older) all go by Judy—but the use of nicknames has changed since then. All the Jameses I know who are my age or older go by Jim, but if I meet a little boy named James I don’t default to Jim/Jimmy at all, and would in fact avoid it unless specifically told to call him that. It may be the same with Judith.
On the other hand, many people are not tuned into naming trends/practices, or are inconsiderate/scornful about other people preferring a certain version of their own names. There are plenty of stories of people acting fake-joking indignant that a child is not to be called Billy, or Beth, or Kathy—or worse, insisting on doing it anyway. I suspect it is part of the package deal of all such names, but that for the most part you will find your peers and your child’s peers cooperative with clearly-stated preferences.
And certainly Jude seems to me like the appropriate contemporary nickname for Judith, just as Will seems more appropriate than Billy for young Williams. In fact, the ability to update the nickname in that way makes the name significantly more usable. I would even go beyond “usable” and say that thinking of Jude as a nickname for Judith puts the name Judith back on my radar.
I also think Iona Judith is a wonderful choice. Both Iona and Judith work with Moses as sister names; each gives a different spin to the feel of the name Moses.
I don’t have much feedback to give on your situation, but I would like to say that I LOVE the name Moses! My first boyfriend was a Moses and I have such fond memories of our relationship and of him as a person. In my experience, men named Moses are creative and funny and kind. Well done!
If you do in fact name your child the Fifth, have you considered the name Quin? (Quin meaning 5). You could also use Quentin, Quint or Quincy. All are super cute to me for little boys. (and if he goes by Quincy or Quentin as a child and want to transition to a more adult-sounding name, he could go by Quin as an adult). Apparently, Finn means “the end” so you could call him “Finn” and let his (possible) future wife off the hook from having to continue this tradition!
Quin is such a cute suggestion! I went to school with a kid that was a fourth and everyone called him Quatro. I honestly didn’t even know his real name for years.
First, I must admit I’m a bit confused about how the whole 5th thing is planned to come about. If your BIL uses it first, you won’t use it? But if you are due first, he’d be the one scrambling for a name at the last moment? Perhaps the situation just isn’t clear from the information in the post (it’s easy to miss stuff online). But I agree that if it hasn’t already happened, a conversation with everyone needs to take place. I’ll add that it might not be a bad idea to have another boy name ready as back up, just in case. Your SIL could deliver a boy early and since you aren’t finding out the sex, it would be fair to let them use the name in that case.
I like the idea of Judah, taken from JDH (and also acting as a tribute to Judith). I do know families with a naming tradition, but all of them have found nicknames somehow related to the name. At the very least, they use nicknames related to the number (Trey for a 3rd for example). In this case, I think Quin would be a nice nickname for you. I will also 2nd Swistle’s suggestion of Donley, assuming it (or Don) aren’t already in use. Other options would include Jay (or J.) or perhaps Lee taken from the end on Donley?
I like Judith, but have to admit it does feel dated to me. It’s very much a “mom” name to me. I once knew a Judith Louise who went by the nickname Jules, taken from Ju-L-S. Maybe something like that could work for you? However, I really prefer Iona as a first name. It’s less dated and I love that it incorporates some significant meaning from your side of the family. Iona Judith is very pretty.
Finally, I’ll have to disagree with Swistle about Jude (I rarely disagree with Swistle!) It’s all boy for me and I have trouble seeing on a girl.
I know a Judith who is in her early 20’s. She mostly goes by her full name, or sometimes “Judes”. I’ve never heard any one call her Judy, or even think to call her that. To me, Judy may be dated, but Judith is classic.
Meredith Jude maybe? Moses and Meredith / Moze and Mere is really cute, if you don’t mind alliteration.
Yes to everything Swistle said. Commenting only to say that I love Judith with the nickname Jude.
This letter is one of the more confusing ones I’ve ever read on this site so I must say I’m not clear on what exactly the plan is for your brother-in-law and you & your hubby to sort out who is using the Fifth as their baby’s name. So yes, priority #1: make sure all parties are clear on the plan for how that name is to be used and by whom. I strongly suggest coming up with a backup boy’s name in case the Fifth is used by your BIL.
Second, I love Iona Judith! I hope you would use Iona as the first name if it’s a girl, it’s so lovely and goes great with Moses. If you use Judith though, I agree Jude is a good nickname. I am aware that Jude is a boy’s name but (probably because of its similarity to Judith/Judy) it has always struck me as a very prissy, feminine name for a boy. I love it, however, as an updated girl’s nickname for Judith! I do think Judith reads to me as a mom/grandma name but not in a bad way. I think it’s a classic.
I love Iona and Judith nickname *Jude* – and love that they’re very different, perhaps a decision to be made when you meet her.
In the event you need another boy name, I like Judah and also recommend: Judson (nn: Jude) or Elijah (similar meaning to Gabriel) or Thaddeus (similar meaning to Judith) or Jacob (same meaning as James).
I am a fan of Jude both as a boy’s name and as a nickname for Judith. I also really like Iona Judith.
I’m surprised no one has brought up that the baby really would NOT be a FIFTH.
It drives me crazy when people misuse suffixes/roman numerals.
Assuming his grandfather is alive, then at most, the child would be a THIRD. This is because as generations die, the numbers are supposed to change – i.e. the oldest living relative is always I, and it goes down from there.
Also, if the brother in-law uses the name, his child should technically NOT be the fifth either, but would just get “II” to indicate he is named after a grandfather/uncle. The numeral would only increase if the name was the same as the fathers..
This is a topic I’ve mentioned from time to time—but in general I’ve found it’s too frustrating to try to force reality to conform to the rules, especially when the rules are (1) not well known and (2) hardly ever followed. My own conclusion is that it’s satisfying to know what the rules are supposed to be, but that the fight to enforce them is long over: the current practice for commoners is the same now as for royalty and popes, no matter what the rules actually are. It’s like saying “I was graduated from college last spring”: it’s the correct way to say it, but people will still look at you like you’re the one who doesn’t know what you’re talking about.
And in this particular case, the letter-writer acknowledges the intended usage is unconventional, so it didn’t seem necessary to linger on that point.
Yea, I figured she meant unconventional only in the sense that she’s naming a second born after the father instead of the first.
Not that she understood all the other parts of it that were incorrect that went along with that..
I think it’s also important to remember that sometimes suffixes are used on birth certificates. If your birth certificate reads John Smith II, you will ALWAYS legally be John Smith II, regardless of what tradition dictates.
I think you’re *technically* supposed to change it on your bc.
this
(by “this”, I mean I was agreeing with TheFirstA about the birth certificate issue.)
I think Judith Iona, nickname Jude, would be a beautiful name.
Just had to comment that I LOVE the nickname Jude with Judith. I’m pregnant with twin girls (been composing my own letter to Swistle for months now) and may be adding that to my own list!
I’m kind of hoping you have a girl because Iona Judith is lovely and the question seems much less complicated that the boy name, but I agree a talk with the in-laws is in order to make sure everyone is on the same page and there are no hurt feelings. I also liked the idea of calling a JDA Judah as a double honor name.
I think that June would be a good nickname for Judith Ioane.
My vote goes for Judith over Iona. I think Judith is lovely, underused, classy, and very elegant. It also sounds much better than Iona with your surname, to my ear. And, I don’t think “Judy” would be an issue. If it becomes one, it could quickly be squashed.
Iona is very pretty but also feels a little incomplete to me (maybe I’m just too used to Fiona and Isla).
I also think maybe for the sake of your husband’s family’s naming traditions, it would be the generous thing to do to find out the sex of your baby to be (if possible) and share it with your brother in law and his family ahead of time, so you can sort out the honoring question?
I also agree w/ Swistle that you need a back up male name option. What are some other family names? Any that you like?
Zebulon (nickname Zeb) came to mind, also Ezekial (Zeke).
I lived across the street from a family with 5 boys. The fifth boy was named Quint. I always liked it and think it would make a great nickname for James V.
First of all, agree with Swistle that you should have another conversation with your brother-in-law. Now that it’s getting closer, you both need to be ok with whatever could happen (they have a boy first, you have a boy first, etc. etc.)
I kinda think that carrying on the tradition is fun, especially if you, and everyone else involved, is on board with it. I agree with you, I like the name James but not so found of the typical shortened nn (Jamie, Jim, Jimmy) but I do LOVE Judd. So cute. So fresh and spunky. Totally love it. Even if your husband doesn’t like it, that could be your shortened/pet name and you could also just have him go by James. Or Donley? Or even Jay?
I love Swistles’ suggestion of using Donley if using the James Donley the V doesn’t work. This should also be in the discussion with said BIL, if they deliver before you & have a boy & use the full name, would they be ok if you used Donley?? I think that would be neat for cousins to share the name plus I think Donley looking more like a surname does make it more trendy then the typical “Don” that I, at least, think of as a “dad’s-name”.
Another thought, did you guys discuss throwing a small kink in the system, what if you guys used James Donley the V and then your brother-in-law used James Donley the VI (or vice versa depending on delivery dates)?? I think this could work if you both had common names that were different from one another. For example: if they want to use the full name but will strictly call him Jimmy and if you guys used the full name but strictly called him Donley. Would both parties be ok with that?? I think you have to have a big convo and go into all the what-ifs. Do they live in the same city as you, would the boys be attending the same school? If not, then it would be even less of an issue, in my opinion.
If neither of the above work, I wonder if your husband would like Judson? That way you could still get your Judd nn that you like, and perhaps your husband would be ok with the longer version.
Other boy names I love:
Judah. My friend just named her son Judah and I love it. I’m so jealous… I wish we could’ve used that name but doesn’t work with our last name. I personally see Jude as an all-boy name, would think it odd if I saw it on a little girl. Judah and Moses.
Ezekial. Moses and Ezekial. Love this. Maybe my favourite.
Ezra.
Thaddeus.
Tobias.
As for the girls, I think both names are win-win.
I really really really like Iona. I think that it has that celtic vibe that is increasing in popularity but is really neat that it has such an important meaning behind it.
Iona Judith. Moses and Iona.
I also really like Judith. I do see what you mean about not wanting Judy; that would be my hesitation with it as well. If you named her Judith Iona, I would personally use the nickname Juna. If you can get Judd out of James Donley, you could easily get Juna out of Judith Iona. I really like that. Plus, it sort of blends two honour names that mean so much to you both! Sold. SWOONING. That would be my pick. (Plus, I think Judith flows a bit better with your last name then Iona, but that shouldn’t be a deal breaker).
Good luck!! Keep us posted for sure! I think a lot of people are interested to see what you choose!
Sigh. Still thinking about Juna. So sweet and feminine and fresh. LOVE IT.
Everyone has given great suggestions! Only thing I will add is the nn Jed. Similar to Judd, but may be just the name for you and your husband to agree on.
Iona is lovely, and it reminds me of Isolde, Isadora, Fiona, et al. Judith is one of those names that modern kids and parents may be less likely to call Judy. I’ve read a lot of posts on Swistle from people who are named James/Elizabeth or whatever and don’t really have to deal with Jimmy/Lizzy after explaining it once or twice. It’s a new era!
That being said, the born-before midcentury crowd may go ahead and say Judy. So there you go.
Does James count as an honor for Judith by virtue of it being a J name? Because I’ve heard it done that way too.
Best!
I’m 41 years old and know someone my age called Judith. I think its a lovely, classic name. No-one has ever called her Judy. People who know her well call her Jude, and it suits her.
I think Judith Iona is a wonderful name. I have been to Iona in Scotland by the way. It’s a beautiful island.
I have to say I love Iona! I think Iona Judith is a fabulous name. Being a name fan and spending countless hours researching names and reading name lists, it’s rare for me to stumble across a new name that I like and think, I must add this to my list! But Iona does that for me.
I do also like Judith! I’m a big fan of The Walking Dead, and there was a baby girl born on the show who they named Judith. At the time, I was like, Judith?!? So outdated! The sibling’s name is Carl though, so Carl and Judith seemed….fit for each other and equally outdated. However – Judith has really grown on me (NOT Carl!) and I do like it now. I think both Iona and Judith would be great choices.
Can’t wait to hear the update!
I LOVE Judith! It’s one of those names that has really grown on me, despite my hesitations about Judy/datedness. It’s strong but soft–it sounds like a brave, quirky, smart name. And I love Jude as a nickname for it. I don’t love Jude as a girls’ name on its own, but as a nickname for Judith it sounds just as cute and appropriate as Charlie for Charlotte. Moses and Judith would be a fabulous sibset, and agree with previous commenters re: Judith sounding better with your surname.