E. writes:
We are expecting our sixth child in June. Our last name is one syllable and begins with “S”, a simple English noun name that rhymes with “Seer”. We don’t know the baby’s sex, but if the baby is a boy, we will most likely name him Peter. We don’t have too many boy names that we like, so we don’t really need help with those.
But girl names are a different story… We have tons of girl names that we like, which is good because we currently have one boy and four girls. In age order, they are:
Theodore
Bernadette
Adelaide
Teresa
VeronicaFor this baby we were initially juggling about 20 girls names, but now we have it down to six:
Agnes
Irene
Louise
Phoebe
Regina
RosemaryMy husband and I really like all six of these names. The kids are okay with all of them, but their favorite is pretty clearly Phoebe.
Our dilemma is that we can’t get past the drawbacks of each of them, so we are continuously debating them and are finding it impossible to narrow the list down any further. (Granted, Peter has its very real drawbacks too, but we nonetheless can’t come up with another boy name that we like as much.)
Will the “s” in Agnes run together with the “S” of our last name? Is the name too closely associated with “Despicable Me” right now? (Our kids think that it is.)
Hurricane Irene hit our area really badly (it knocked down a huge tree in our own yard and our neighborhood was without power for four days, there was extensive damage all over the place)… We love the name, but haven’t been able to get past that association… Do you think it is still closely associated with the hurricane for most other people too?
Does the “s” in Louise present a similar problem to the one in Agnes? Or is it kind of more of a “z” sound? Does it matter? Is it a poor choice with an “S” last name? Will a Louise be very teased? Geez Louise, Please Louise, Loo (as in toilet), Wheezy, things like that?
Is Phoebe too difficult to spell? When I think about it, many names are not phonetic — take for example the perennially popular Michael: the only reason we know how to spell it is that we have learned at some point, because it certainly isn’t spelled like it is pronounced — but still, will a Phoebe constantly deal with spelling and pronunciation issues? Or is it common enough that most people know how to spell it? Our kids think the name is a perfect fit with theirs, but is it a little off?
In the comments on all of the name sites, people constantly caution against Regina because of the “Canadian” pronunciation… What do you think? Is a Regina doomed to be teased for this reason in middle school health class, if not sooner? Some people claim that they think of the female organ every time they see the name.
And we don’t mind the herb association with Rosemary, we think it is nice… But we saw in the news that they are doing a mini-series remake of “Rosemary’s Baby” right now :( So will that very negative association be at the forefront of everyone’s mind if we name a baby “Rosemary” in a few weeks? I had been hopeful that most people wouldn’t even be aware of the movie from the 60s; my heart kind of sank when I first saw a news announcement about the remake.
There is more to say, but this is very long already so I will stop here… Thanks so much for any help you can give us!! We don’t mind going to the hospital with a couple of names still in the running, but right now we are feeling very conflicted, and we will appreciate any advice that we get.
(Oh, and middle names are not an issue because the kids all have the same middle name… My husband took my last name when we married, so the kids all have his “maiden” name as a middle :) It’s one syllable and starts with F. And also, our born kids all have nicknames that are used by the family, but the nicknames each developed over the course of their babyhoods, and we aren’t worried about the new baby’s nickname “fitting in” or anything like that.)
When choosing my own babies’ names, I found it comforting to notice that every name had its own set of upsides and downsides. There wasn’t a single name that had NO downsides: if it wasn’t too popular, perhaps it was a little too unusual; if it was easy to pronounce, perhaps it had several common spellings; or perhaps there was an association with a TV show or a biblical character, or perhaps it was hard to spell, or perhaps it combined with our surname in a non-ideal way, or perhaps we didn’t like one of the nicknames. But they ALL had SOMETHING.
It’s good to look at the downsides ahead of time, because they’re part of the package deal of each name. I feel sympathy for parents who choose a name without realizing how popular it is, or without realizing what a hard time people will have with the pronunciation, or without knowing about a strong association: I think it’s a lot harder to adjust to a downside when it’s unexpected.
Now that you’ve found the downsides in the names on your list, I think the next step is to look at the upsides. Which names make your heart leap up? Which names make your heart clench if you imagine not getting to use them? Are there names you find yourself looking for reasons to use? Picture a baby in your arms, and try each name; are there names that give you a larger rush of happiness? If you’ve narrowed twenty names down to six, it may be that you already feel equally positive toward all six. At that point, I’d probably start in on an actual list of upsides for each name (“Easy to spell,” “Love the sound,” “Reminds me of my aunt,” “Love it with the sibling names,” etc.), to see which lists were longer (though adjusted for weight: “My heart leaps up every time I think of it” weighs more than “Easy to spell”).
If you love all six names the same and can’t narrow it down any further, it appeals to me tremendously to imagine letting the kids choose the name. If the kids’ vote were divided, or if they loved a name that didn’t make your finalist list, I wouldn’t be as strongly in favor of it; but since they ALL love Phoebe best, I think it would be great fun to say “Okay!” I do think spelling will be one of the issues with the name, but I don’t think it will be a big issue: many of us have to spell our names.
If you want my personal input on the various downsides:
1. I don’t think it’s a large problem if the ending of a first name runs into the beginning of the surname, unless it results in unfortunate/confusing blends. The classic example is Ben Dover, which turns into Bend Over. Or sometimes the combination makes the first name sound like a different first name: Alec Samuel sounds like Alex Samuel, for example. With situations like Agnes Seer, where there’s just a little mushing of the S sounds but no resulting confusion, I think everyone just gets accustomed to putting a tiny pause between the first name and the last name.
2. I’m not sure if Agnes is too associated with Despicable Me or not, but it’s nice that it’s a positive association. I’ve seen the movie a few times and didn’t think of it, but I’d weigh a child’s opinion much more heavily than my own: the associations of peers will have more impact on the child’s life.
3. If you haven’t been able to get over the Hurricane Irene association, I think it’s a fair bet that others feel the same about it—especially if you’re living among the people most affected.
4. I think people will play with the rhymey possibilities of a name, but that the rhymes for Louise are non-upsetting. Rhymes such as Cooper/pooper and Lexi/sexy make me hesitate, but rhymes such as Please Louise and Anna Banana do not. The Lou/loo association doesn’t seem likely to be a big issue in the United States: perhaps a few of her peers will be familiar with that slang, but it isn’t widely used here. “John” is a slang term for toilet in the U.S., but even that isn’t something I hear much.
5. I’ve heard of the Regina issue often enough that now I think of it every time I see the name. It’s a pity.
6. I’m not sure what the effect of Rosemary’s Baby will be on the name Rosemary. It helps, I think, that Rosemary is not herself a negative character, and that small children presumably won’t be allowed to watch it. I think of the herb before I think of the book/film.
As I go through these, Louise and Phoebe seem to have the fewest issues. My own choice would be Phoebe because it’s the favorite of your other children and has the fewest issues of all. Let’s have a poll to see what everyone else thinks would be best:
Name update!
Hello Swistle!
This is the mom of “Baby Seer” writing to let you know that I had the baby on June 29, and it was a girl, and we did name her Phoebe :) Many thanks to all of you!
The kids are all delighted with the name choice, plus they have really embraced the team concept and do feel that we named her as a team. They seem so far — if they use a nickname at all — to call her “Bee” sometimes because they also like to say “Honey Bee” and “Funny Bee” (and have even made up a little song along those lines :).
Thanks again!
Emily
Since you have a bunch of great options, you might want to consider some limits that other larger families impose for style/organization reasons? Namely, having unique initials. Since you already have an Adelaide, that might be an easy way to eliminate Agnes.
When I hear Agnes, I think of the character on the PBS show, Selfridges, which is a very positive association. Strong, lovely, creative character. I’m not helping if you’re trying to eliminate it for purposes of unique initials, though! :)
I think Phoebe is adorable, would lend itself to fun nicknames and is extra sweet because your kiddos like it so much. Sure, spelling won’t always be easy, but it’s not so uncommon that people won’t know how to pronounce it that often. There’s the character from Friends who made it a bit more familiar, after all. I consider that a fading, yet positive association.
If things like Geez, Louise bug you, maybe you could consider Louisa? Or maybe Irena will move the name further away from the Hurricane Irene reference? Or maybe Elena? Those give your last three girls a similar ending sound to their names, though… maybe you wouldn’t like that.
I kinda think the Rosemary’s Baby resurgence with the TV show might eliminate that option in my book. It’s a pretty creepy association, even though I love the botanical connection :(
Strangely I pronounce Regina the Canadian way because I listened to a book on tape by Phillipa Gregory where the character was daydreaming about becoming queen and signing her letters Mary R, Mary Regina (and it was pronounced ruh-gyna, which I guess is the correct way for the royal association?)
Good luck!! I think you’ll pick a winner, no matter which one you choose :)
They already have Theodore and Teresa, though.
You’re right- so that initial theory goes right out the window. That’s what I get for replying in a rush. Whoops!
Still keeping my vote for Phoebe, but I do love Agnes. Here’s a little article about the Agnes on the PBS series:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/programs/character-hub/series/mr-selfridge/character/agnes-towler_s506
I voted for Phoebe, but on your list the only two I’d personally eliminate for the reasons you gave are Irene and Regina. Irene because you live in the area affected. Regina because even though it should be a lovely name, it does remind me of the closely spelled body part. Rosemary is my second favorite.
I think if you and your husband like all of the names equally, letting the children pick is a really fun thing. It also seems to me that Phoebe has the least of any of the drawbacks (spelling, using the standard spelling, doesn’t really even seem like a drawback to me).
I do also really like Agnes and I don’t think of Despicable Me when I hear the name, though I have seen the movies. In a year or two, I don’t think most kids would even remember it but that might depend on if they continue making sequels of it.
Louise doesn’t run into the surname for me because I pronounce it with more of a z sound than an s. If you are pronouncing with an s, then I do think it runs into the surname a bit.
I think Rosemary’s Baby is a mini series right? So it probably won’t have much in the way of staying power/association. I think most people would think of the herb first.
I didn’t think of the alternate pronunciation for Regina but now that it’s been mentioned, I probably would avoid it unless I loved the name.
I am not from the area but when I saw Irene, I did think of the hurricane.
I think my top two are Phoebe and Agnes but they are all great and go well with the siblings’ names!
I love Phoebe the most, but I wanted to throw out Rosemarie as an alternative to Rosemary. Very similar sounds but without the Rosemary’s Baby association.
I vote Phoebe for 3 reasons:
1. seems woefully underused in an era of Penelope
2. it’s the kids’ favorite
3. it sounds like the perfect name for the spunky youngest kiddo in the sibset
agreed with all of these thoughts!
I think that you have a strong list here. Some thoughts:
1) Agnes is an awesome name and I don’t think the Despicable Me association should take it out of the running. The movie character is a cool, spunky kid and I think it’s a positive association if anything. For me, it would be like naming a child Anna or Elsa (like the characters from Frozen).
2) Rosemary made me think of the spice and then Rosemary Clooney.
3) Regina made me think of the Mean Girls character and then Regina the city. Either way, I think this is one you could scratch off the list.
4) I would cross off Irene too since you said it doesn’t have a positive association for you or people in your area.
5) I love Phoebe- I think its spunky and charming. I don’t think the spelling is a burden (as you said, most people know how to spell it intuitively through exposure just like the name Michael).
I vote Phoebe or Agnes.
I love Phoebe and I think it’s really sweet that all of the children love it. I really think it’s the best choice.
I know a couple Reginas, including a baby Regina, and I personally DON’T think of the pronunciation issue (and am always surprise-reminded of it when I read about it on baby name sites or the like). That said, it is SO OFTEN brought up, that I strongly suspect I’m in the minority.
All of your other kids have 3 or 4 syllable names, so if you wanted a criteria to help narrow names down, you could eliminate the 2 syllable names. I think the longer names flow better with your last name, which you also seem to have preferred.
What about Ilene instead of Irene?
We have a last name starting with S- also, and I shied away from names ending in -s because I kept getting tongue twisted.
I think Phoebe is a well known name, enough so that I wouldn’t worry about the spelling.
I also like the previous suggestion of Lousia.
I voted for Rosemary because it is a beautiful name and I don’t think the mini-series will change the long history of tinge name. (The movie didn’t really).
First I want to say how much I love your children’s names. Bernadette is one of my favorites!
I think you have 2 great choices in Phoebe and Rosemary. If you are leaning toward Phoebe anyway I don’t see any reason not to use it; the only potential issue could be the amount of E sounds between that and your last name. But bonus points for the whole family liking it!
Rosemary is really beautiful, though, and I think it is the name I would choose in your position. (It would be #1 on my own list except it doesn’t work with my last name.) I’m 31, and the movie/miniseries connection doesn’t bother me.
Best of luck and please send an update!
My youngest is a Phoebe, and the spelling issue has not been a big deal for us. Sure, some people spell it Pheobe, and there is an occasional issue when someone looks at her name but doesn’t know how to pronounce it, but honestly it happens less often than I expected. Most people get it right or ask. I love it and it suits my scrappy little girl perfectly.
That said, I adore Agnes and would love to see someone use it!
I think all of your options are great, actually. However, since you have to pick one…
Irene is what I would pick if you were me, because I live in California and would never make the connection to the hurricane, and I think it’s a beautiful, underused name (like Bernadette!). So maybe that helps if your question is, “will other people automatically think of the hurricane?” I suspect your question is actually “will my family and neighbors always be reminded of the hurricane?” though, and it sounds like you might.
I also really like Rosemary, and think the concerns about “Rosemary’s Baby” are the most easily dismissed of the ones on your list. Nobody is going to remember that miniseries in six months, let alone five years. Rosemary is gorgeous and a good fit for your family. I will point out though that if you use Rosemary, your last two girls will have subtley floral names…which might be a plus or a minus depending on your point of view.
My actual vote goes to Phoebe though. I like that it’s a nature name but not a floral name, and classic while still being a little off beat…it seems very in keeping with your overall style. I really wouldn’t worry about the spelling. It’s much more like Michael and George…one of those names that basic familiarity with Western culture will teach you how to spell even if it’s not 100% intuitive, than it is like Xanthe or Siobhan or anything I’d consider a true spelling challenge.
I voted for Rosemary, but love the suggestion of Rosemarie!
While it’s not ideal that Agnes runs together with your last name, I don’t think it’s a big enough issue not to use the name. I did think of the Despicable Me connection, but since it’s not a negative association I wouldn’t advise you not to use the name because of it.
If you live in an area that was affected by Hurricane Irene, it’s probably best not to use the name–unlike Agnes it IS a negative association for many people. It’s really too bad, since Irene is a beautiful name. (They should really stop naming hurricanes after people…it makes so many baby names unusable!)
Again, I don’t think the first name/last name issue matters much with Louise, along with the “please Louise” association. As for the Louise/loo thing, if you live in America I doubt most kids will even know the term. If it helps, my name rhymes with Booby and it wasn’t that big of an issue–yes, kids made fun of me, but not so much that it made a huge negative impact on my childhood. Kids will tease each other for anything–if I’d had a different name I’m sure they would have found something else to give me a hard time about.
I think Phoebe’s familiar enough that most people know how to spell it, and even if they don’t know I don’t think it would create too many problems. I know lots of people who have names that are much harder to spell than Phoebe, and it doesn’t seem to be a huge issue for them. I think it’s a great fit with your other kids’ names.
Okay, Regina is a tricky one. The potential associations seem a lot worse to me that “jeeze Louise” or my own “Ruby/Booby” experience. I think most kids won’t be aware of the “Canadian” pronunciation, but it’s still not something I would want people to associate with my name. I knew a Regina in middle school who got made fun of for that reason. I also associate the name with Regina George from Mean Girls…that’s not as bad as the other thing, but still not exactly a positive connection.
I really like the name Rosemary, and I didn’t even think of the Rosemary’s Baby connection; however, it might be more obvious to someone from an older generation. It’s a great name, though, and there are tons of popular names out there that have similar issues. It wouldn’t be a deal-breaker for me.
Out of all the names you brought up, I’d go with Phoebe. It seems to have the fewest issues for you, and the fact that it’s your kids’ favorite is sweet.
I really like phoebe but have you considered Ingrid?
Hi! I got so excited when I saw your letter I showed my husband! Our two girls are Agnes and Irene, and a future boy will probably have Bernard for a middle. Sooo, our take: Agnes is an awesome name. Agnes Seer is probably ok WRT the “s” ending because there seems to be a natural pause for everyone after saying her name. We get really positive responses to her name, and the Dispicible Me connection is rarely made. When it is made, it is always positive.
Irene always gets a smile, because everyone has a grand(someone) named Irene. We weren’t affected by the hurricane, but our Irene is serene, so that could be a novel approach. It is a great name; Irena is a nice variant if Irene is to blustery for you.
We love both our girls’ names, and recommend them without hesitation. Other reasons to love the names: they are recognizable without being common; decidedly feminine; it’s almost impossible to mis-hear or mis-spell them; and they are beautiful, both written and spoken. We also liked that our girls could be “anyone” because there are no stereotypes or associations with the names. Nicknames are also easy and sweet.
Best wishes!
Well… I happen to live in Regina, Canada. And we are known as “The City That Rhymes with Fun”. Seriously. That is the unofficial title for us, radio stations blast this… it’s everywhere. For that reason, I would not use it at all. I know that every name has downsides, but this is one of those names that I just couldn’t give to a child. Sorry :(
My favourites on your list would be:
Louise. Love the idea of using Lou or Lulu for nn. Have you considered Louisa? The -a on the end adds an extra syllable and very different sound that may resolve the running into your last name issue??
Agnes (super positive association with Despicable Me. Agnes is SOO cute!).
Phoebe. If the kids all love this then I say go for it! It would be kind of cute to say that the kiddos named her!! hehe… Plus, the way you are considering spelling this is the typical way I think 99% of people would spell it, so likely less of an issue then you think it will be!
Good luck and keep us posted!
Hmmm. I voted for Irene (because I love the name) before I read your post; now, reading your concerns about it, I’d say no. Plus, only 2 syllables.
To follow suit with all your children having 3-syllable names, and because your surname is one syllable, I’d recommend Rosemary. Plus, tons of nickname options.
It is really cute that all your kids want Phoebe, though!
My favorites are Agnes and Irene. However, I think the Hurricane Irene is a bigger negative than the s smooshing, so I voted for Agnes. Personally, I think Agnes from the movie would be a positive as it makes the name seem more contemporary. Otherwise, I suspect it’s still very “old lady” to some people. (I happen to love “old lady” so I love the name even without the connection).
I hesitate to over more suggestions for you, but Agnes did make me think of one of my all time favorites, Agatha. Or Inez which is a variant of Agnes that also seems kind of similar to Irene. Perhaps the ending Z would lessen some of your concern about the S smooshing?
After Agnes & Irene, my 3rd favorite for you is Phoebe. I don’t think spelling will be a huge problem for you. The name is going to be familiar enough that I think most people will get it.
FWIW, I immediately thought of Genevieve for your family.
My youngest aunt’s name was chosen from a short list by her older siblings … And a few decades later, I think her name is the pick of the bunch! Kids… They have their finger on the pulse. You can’t go too wrong with the Counsel of Infants.
I love all your name choices but wanted to point out one thing that may or may not matter to you– 3 of your girls’ names are shared with very prominent saints: Veronica, Teresa, and Bernadette. Maybe that’s intentional? Maybe not? If I met a large family that included those names plus Agnes (another prominent saint) I’d assume they were very religious/Catholic. Not necessarily a bad thing! Just pointing it out.
None of your other choices, with the exception of maybe Rosemary (and maybe I’m just associating that with my fervently Catholic great-aunt), say “religious” in the same way.
That said, Agnes is my favorite of your picks. :) I just love that name so much and think it is so spunky and cute for a littlest sister. Because the emphasis is on the AG syllable, it sounds ok with Seer. Phoebe has the same feeling and I do think Phoebe is maybe better with your surname. But either are so cute! And no, I don’t think Phoebe will have spelling problems– at least, not so many.
Also, I too live in an area that Irene passed over– and would not use the name for that reason. I have another great aunt named Irina though, does that appeal?
For me, Regina would be out due to the unfortunate rhyme; and Louise is way too much of a tongue-twister with Seer. It would drive me crazy to be named Louise with a last name that began with a “See” sound.
Rosemary is cute and I don’t associate it with the film, though others might. Do you have a nickname in mind for that option? Rosie is another tongue twister with Seer– but Romy or Mary would be nice.
The suggestion of Genevieve above is great! I know you probably don’t need any other suggestions, but I also thought of:
Penelope
Caroline
Mirabelle
Renata
Evangeline
Beatrice or Beatrix
Johanna
Margaret or Marguerite
Matilda
Florence
Good luck!! Please, please update us!
Regina is the “Evil Queen” from ABC’s popular Once Upon A Time series… which means a lot of kids will say it without it rhyming unfortunately… but it will still have a negative association. Bummer. I love this name, too! I know an adult Regina, and -WOW- is she ever put together… organized and efficient, calm and full of humor.
Plenty of other people have mentioned using Irina or Irena or Ilene as a Irene substitute, and I agree with them. It’s a shame about the hurricane connection! The Irene I knew was, as someone else also posted above, super serene.
Louise has spirit, but when combined with all the Lulus and Lucys and Lolas, Louise is beginning to feel popular around where I live.
Rosemary is fabulous! I smell it every time I see the name. The only Rosemary I knew was a live wire with an iron backbone; nothing phased her.
Agnes. Ah, Agnes. This one is my favorite. The Agnes I knew was the epitome of a lady. Dignified, gracious, hospitable, generous, charming… I don’t have enough nice words to say about her.
And then there’s Phoebe. She has less syllables than your other childrens’ names (as someone else mentioned), doesn’t share a same starting initial, has an ending sound unique from your other children, and is a bird. I like it! As far as spelling, plenty of kids nowadays have names like Phoenix and Isaiah… society is being trained to broaden its name expectations and awareness.
Best wishes as you anticipate the arrival of your sweet baby!
I’m another vote for letting your children have their favourite and go with Phoebe. How wonderful for them to be so involved in the arrival of their baby sister!
If you aren’t quite comfortable with it, though would you be willing to tweak Rosemarie to Rosalie? I think this would also be a great fit for your family and remove any negative associations. It’s one of my personal favourites.
I am the person who submitted this question… Thank you so much to everyone for all of the very helpful feedback! I really appreciate all of your insights and advice. Based on everything in Swistle’s reply and the comments, we have narrowed the list down to Agnes, Phoebe, and Rosemary. We are comfortable going to the hospital with three names and meeting the baby before settling on one.
Thanks also for the additional suggestions… I’d just like to mention that we love Genevieve but there are three in my family already, including one of my cousin’s daughters, and my husband & I would like to avoid choosing a name that has already been used for a family member in the baby’s generation… so Genevieve is out, but we do love it. And we love Agatha too… But the kids aren’t really on board with it, for some reason, so it didn’t make the list of 6 (it was on the list of 20 :).
One of you pointed out that three of our kids have prominent saint’s names — we do really like saint’s names :) Theodore may not seem first and foremost like a saint’s name to most people, but there are quite a few of them, including one who was a soldier and is always depicted holding a spear, which we think is kind of neat, because that is our actual last name. It obviously only has meaning for us, but sometimes those little things really make a name special, you know?
And Adelaide doesn’t seem like a saint’s name to many people, but St. Adelaide of Italy is a patron of parents of large families (she was an empress and had four children and had to manage all of their very public conflicts)… We hoped to have a big family so we thought she would be a great namesake for our third :)
Phoebe also doesn’t seem like a saint’s name to many people, but St. Phoebe was a deaconess in the early church, and while we are a happily Catholic family, we would like to see a more prominent role for women in the future of the church… So we figure that if the new baby is a girl and we have five daughters, maybe a sort of “girl power” saint like Phoebe the Deaconess would be a good choice :)
Agnes has obvious saint associations and Rosemary to us seems like a lovely way to use two saint’s names at once. (We do like Rosemarie too, and are thinking about it — thanks for that suggestion!)
Just in case anyone would like to know, our born kids’ nicknames are Teddy, Bette, Della, Tess & Vee.
And Leo and Augustine are also in the running for a boy, but Peter is the definite forerunner. We all just like it.
Thanks again for all of your help!!! I will definitely send an update after the baby is born :)
what a sweet story! i love bee’s nicknames and song :)